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What winch?

tampahoosier

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It is only 80ft, and 10 of that goes to the initial spool, so 70ft of useable line.
Only once did I spool out the entire line, and it was to rip out an old oak tree lol. I’ve never had to spool out more than half of my line for actual off-roading. I guess it depends on where you are, here in FL most trails are lined with trees everywhere.
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PyrPatriot

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Only once did I spoil out the entire line, and it was to rip out an old oak tree lol. I’ve never had to spool our more than half of my line for actual off-roading. I guess it depends on where you are, here in FL most trails are lined with trees everywhere.
It is hit or miss here in KY. I usually ride trails that are in lush forest, but in that onetime I get stuck in a mud patch and the nearest tree of adequate size is far away, I want all the line I can get and use extensions as needed
 

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Since a snatch block doubles the line pull, do I need a line that can handle 20k lbs?
 

tampahoosier

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Since a snatch block doubles the line pull, do I need a line that can handle 20k lbs?
I wouldn't think so, but I will defer to some others to chime in as well with their opinions. It couldn't hurt to get line with a higher rating though, price permitting.

And I hear ya on wanting a longer amount of line if possible. I'm always about being ready... Semper Paratus.
 

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Since a snatch block doubles the line pull, do I need a line that can handle 20k lbs?
You would, yes. While the winch may only be pulling 10k lbs, the line between the snatch block/pulley and whatever you're winching will have to bear the full 20k lbs load.
 

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You would, yes. While the winch may only be pulling 10k lbs, the line between the snatch block/pulley and whatever you're winching will have to bear the full 20k lbs load.
Great. Upgraded to the Ranger rope sold on Amazon. Smittybilt responded to me saying their rope and steel cable are only good for 10k
 

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Now the question becomes, how much pull can recovery points handle? A class IV hitch can only take 10k lbs. The front hooks are bolted into the frame same as the hitch receiver (though it is technically distributed more for less strain on the frame). Does “doubling” a 10k winch pull even make sense if it is enough to exceed the tolerance/limits of the points? Or is it that in a double/triple line pull the strain gets divided amongst the multiple points? Hence not an issue with ripping the winch plate out, which usually only handles 12k lbs
 

tampahoosier

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Great. Upgraded to the Ranger rope sold on Amazon. Smittybilt responded to me saying their rope and steel cable are only good for 10k
It's double the price of the ranger line, but MasterPull makes some really good synthetic line as well. They have 3 levels of the stuff but the middle brand of that line, "Superline", has a good price point.
 

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It's double the price of the ranger line, but MasterPull makes some really good synthetic line as well. They have 3 levels of the stuff but the middle brand of that line, "Superline", has a good price point.
I just can't justify spending the cost of a Smittybilt winch on rope. If I was using it to crawl up rocks, sure. But given I'm at worst going to be on a muddy hill winching up, or bogged down unexpectedly in a mud hole, I'm not as concerned with the line breaking, and will be keeping my steel cable wrapped up as a backup
 

tampahoosier

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I just can't justify spending the cost of a Smittybilt winch on rope. If I was using it to crawl up rocks, sure. But given I'm at worst going to be on a muddy hill winching up, or bogged down unexpectedly in a mud hole, I'm not as concerned with the line breaking, and will be keeping my steel cable wrapped up as a backup
Totally understandable!
 

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SB on the topic
[/QUOTE]
So I just put on my first winch last Friday. My buddy and I were working till midnight and it was a learning experience for me, at least. Didn't get to do all the things I was supposed to do (mainly unspool it and rewind it under tension), or torque the winch into the plate (because the instructions didn't have it and Smittybilt was only emailed by me yesterday). But, with a solid week of rain coming that means 2 weeks of no wheeling, so I can catch up on things, change the oil, inspect the diff fluid, etc. I have started on researching winches more (spent a few days prior to buying) and wanted to ask some questions on some posts here.

First, I bought the Smittybilt X20 10k winch with steel line and a Rugged Ridge plate. They were available locally. At fist I thought the 10k would be enough, but now as I learn things I have concerns. A winch should be 1.5 times the vehicle weight. Well, with curb weight of 4700lbs I thought 10k would be fine. Except after installing everything and heading out to the trails with the wife and kid, plus gear, we were at 6000lbs! Compound on that, you don't get the full winch pull strength until you are on the innermost layer of line.

Smittybilt also had this to say about that:



Which means I only have 85ft of actual line to work with, not 98ft. And when using a snatchblock, you cut the line speed, thus increasing the strain, right? What is interesting to note is the 12k X20 draws less AMPs, even at 12k. The 10k at 10k lbs it draws 415 AMPs but with the 12k at 12k lbs draws 330 AMPs!!! More and more I am thinking I should have just spent the extra $150 on the 12k... Did I make the wrong choice with the 10k? Even at the outermost layer the winch still pulls over the GVWR of the vehicle, but the vehicle's weight could be increased by a myriad of factors, especially mud! But most likely not paying attention to what I have in it (I was shocked to be at 6000lbs)

SB X20 10k.PNG






What about the winch pulling less as the line is shorter?




What about the shorter length on line pull speed?



What winch plate? So far the only one I have found to be rated for 15k is the Mopar one.




It indeed looks slick. I personally like the control box over the line as a form of extra protection. Yes, the line does not need protection, but it's a psychological thing of liking to keep things covered. I LOVE how the grill has a concave section to accommodate winch boxes and not block the radiator air intake.



SB on the topic
So.... Ill try to answer a few of the questions as best as I can.

“What about the winch pulling less as the line is shorter?”
“What about the shorter length on line pull speed?”
“Did I make the wrong choice with the 10k?”

1) I think, If you have the 10K installed, you can get by with it and not have to eat that cost and buy a whole new winch. Just BE SMART about it when you use it. As you showed in the pull rating chart... 4 wraps is rated 6600lbs and single layer is 10K. That said, know in your head that if you do get in a spot where you have to use the winch, you will have to draw out more line (anchor farther out or use snatch block) to keep from overtaxing your winch.
Side note - My 15K Bulldog is 15K single layer and around 9K at 4 layers so even though I’ll probably never need 15K pull, it makes it more convenient that I can do short pulls without taxing the winch and not having to reel in 75 foot of cable after. I bought the winch when I still had my 2DR JK (it was SERIOUS overkill for that Jeep) knowing I wanted a JT and it would be future proof in a sense as I could put it on any Jeep I bought. I was actually looking at the 10K & 12K Smittybuilts when I happened across mine on clearance for $360. Most places on Amazon were selling mine for $900-1200, at the time, but the Seller I got it from was no longer going to carry the brand and had them on clearance.

Anyrate, just use you head and know your equipments limits (and how to compensate for them) and you should be fine.

2) as far as the 10K drawing more amps than the 12K .... that more than likely has to do with gearing. Most likely its the same electric motor in both winches BUT with different gears in the case, the motor now has a max pull of 12K instead of 10K and less strain pulling but it slows the draw-in rate in the process. Again, my 15K can pull more but its not very fast at all because of gearing. You could probably reel in all your cable, secure your hook and be in the drivers seat rolling by the time I finish just winding in the cable on mine. Less feet per minute but more torque.
That leads to ....

3) snatch blocks! They work on the same principle. For one, your reeling out enough cable/rope to be on single or second layer allowing your winch to be at a better pulling rate/ratio. Also your doubling the turns per foot of travel similar to a come-along like someone else mentioned. Think of it like your axel gears. You take off 33’s and put on 40’s ... you haven’t changed the horsepower or torque specs of the ENGINE but taller tires changes the rotation to distance ratios (and increases weight) so instead of running 10 feet per XX revolutions of the driveshaft, you’re now running 12 feet (OR same distance but less revolutions) And that change in ratio makes the truck feel sluggish. SO you change the gearing in the axel and are able to get the rotation to distance ratio back and the truck suddenly feels more lively again! You didn’t change the power, just the gearing or ratios. Think of the Sport S with or without max tow. That Max tow does give you different springs for higher tongue weight and payload but the reason it and the rubicon are pulling 7600 and 7000 respectively compare to the Sports without the max tow at 6000 is the 4.10:1 gears in the axles.
Snatch blocks change the RATIO of the pull not the POWER of the winch. Technically if you got your truck stuck in the mud, I could pull you out by hand! (With enough snatch blocks/pulleys applied to the rigging ;) ) applying the pulley system doesn’t change the power of the winch (or my arms) it changes the amount of Force required to move the object a set distance. You still have the same 6000lbs weight at the end of the cable, it just changes the amount of POWER required to MOVE the 6000lbs. Doubling up allows your 10K winch to pull more than 10K because it reduces the amount of power required to make the pull. Straight line, single wrap, your winch is straining to pull 10k, but doubled up with a pulley system, you winch only works half as hard to pull the same weight which helps longevity of the winch and less strain/electrical draw on the vehicle.

4) new rope/cable?? I wouldn’t think so as long you remember that yours is only rated for 10K and don’t try to pull 30K with it using 4 pulleys doubled over. With that said, remember, your truck is sitting at 6000lbs or so and being stuck on a rock or in the mud adds to the resistance of motion in effect making that 6000lb truck need 9000lbs of force to move it. SO... if you do get stuck, just remember to use the winch as an assistant not the only means of motion. DONT dead pull the truck, instead, use the winch to give a little extra pull kinda like having 4 buddies push the truck as you give it some gas.

5). “What winch plate? So far the only one I have found to be rated for 15k is the Mopar one.”

Mine doesn’t use a ‘winch plate’ as the winch is bolted straight to the top of the bumper. I have not found any specs on what the bumper is rated for but it is the Bestop Highrock High Clearnace bumper. The only specs I found is that it uses 3/16” steel plate and when looking I did find some others advertising that they were made with 1/8” steel plate and rated for 12K winches so I’m guessing I’m okay. I have had the opportunity to use the winch several times (one time assisting the tires as noted above in pulling my JTR uphill in the mud and another time Assisting me pulling a Jeep out of a 3 foot drop off with my tires turning and another Jeeps tires turning between me and the stuck one - daisy chained ) and haven’t had any issue whatsoever but am usually very cautious when winching having seen people do stupid shit with fatal results.


what does all this mean? Use your head and BE CAREFUL! The winch you have will work if you’re smart about it and don’t try to do more than its capable of. Use the winch as an assist and not the only means of pulling force and you’ll be fine.
 

PyrPatriot

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SB on the topic


So.... Ill try to answer a few of the questions as best as I can.

“What about the winch pulling less as the line is shorter?”
“What about the shorter length on line pull speed?”
“Did I make the wrong choice with the 10k?”

1) I think, If you have the 10K installed, you can get by with it and not have to eat that cost and buy a whole new winch. Just BE SMART about it when you use it. As you showed in the pull rating chart... 4 wraps is rated 6600lbs and single layer is 10K. That said, know in your head that if you do get in a spot where you have to use the winch, you will have to draw out more line (anchor farther out or use snatch block) to keep from overtaxing your winch.
Side note - My 15K Bulldog is 15K single layer and around 9K at 4 layers so even though I’ll probably never need 15K pull, it makes it more convenient that I can do short pulls without taxing the winch and not having to reel in 75 foot of cable after. I bought the winch when I still had my 2DR JK (it was SERIOUS overkill for that Jeep) knowing I wanted a JT and it would be future proof in a sense as I could put it on any Jeep I bought. I was actually looking at the 10K & 12K Smittybuilts when I happened across mine on clearance for $360. Most places on Amazon were selling mine for $900-1200, at the time, but the Seller I got it from was no longer going to carry the brand and had them on clearance.

Anyrate, just use you head and know your equipments limits (and how to compensate for them) and you should be fine.

2) as far as the 10K drawing more amps than the 12K .... that more than likely has to do with gearing. Most likely its the same electric motor in both winches BUT with different gears in the case, the motor now has a max pull of 12K instead of 10K and less strain pulling but it slows the draw-in rate in the process. Again, my 15K can pull more but its not very fast at all because of gearing. You could probably reel in all your cable, secure your hook and be in the drivers seat rolling by the time I finish just winding in the cable on mine. Less feet per minute but more torque.
That leads to ....

3) snatch blocks! They work on the same principle. For one, your reeling out enough cable/rope to be on single or second layer allowing your winch to be at a better pulling rate/ratio. Also your doubling the turns per foot of travel similar to a come-along like someone else mentioned. Think of it like your axel gears. You take off 33’s and put on 40’s ... you haven’t changed the horsepower or torque specs of the ENGINE but taller tires changes the rotation to distance ratios (and increases weight) so instead of running 10 feet per XX revolutions of the driveshaft, you’re now running 12 feet (OR same distance but less revolutions) And that change in ratio makes the truck feel sluggish. SO you change the gearing in the axel and are able to get the rotation to distance ratio back and the truck suddenly feels more lively again! You didn’t change the power, just the gearing or ratios. Think of the Sport S with or without max tow. That Max tow does give you different springs for higher tongue weight and payload but the reason it and the rubicon are pulling 7600 and 7000 respectively compare to the Sports without the max tow at 6000 is the 4.10:1 gears in the axles.
Snatch blocks change the RATIO of the pull not the POWER of the winch. Technically if you got your truck stuck in the mud, I could pull you out by hand! (With enough snatch blocks/pulleys applied to the rigging ;) ) applying the pulley system doesn’t change the power of the winch (or my arms) it changes the amount of Force required to move the object a set distance. You still have the same 6000lbs weight at the end of the cable, it just changes the amount of POWER required to MOVE the 6000lbs. Doubling up allows your 10K winch to pull more than 10K because it reduces the amount of power required to make the pull. Straight line, single wrap, your winch is straining to pull 10k, but doubled up with a pulley system, you winch only works half as hard to pull the same weight which helps longevity of the winch and less strain/electrical draw on the vehicle.

4) new rope/cable?? I wouldn’t think so as long you remember that yours is only rated for 10K and don’t try to pull 30K with it using 4 pulleys doubled over. With that said, remember, your truck is sitting at 6000lbs or so and being stuck on a rock or in the mud adds to the resistance of motion in effect making that 6000lb truck need 9000lbs of force to move it. SO... if you do get stuck, just remember to use the winch as an assistant not the only means of motion. DONT dead pull the truck, instead, use the winch to give a little extra pull kinda like having 4 buddies push the truck as you give it some gas.

5). “What winch plate? So far the only one I have found to be rated for 15k is the Mopar one.”

Mine doesn’t use a ‘winch plate’ as the winch is bolted straight to the top of the bumper. I have not found any specs on what the bumper is rated for but it is the Bestop Highrock High Clearnace bumper. The only specs I found is that it uses 3/16” steel plate and when looking I did find some others advertising that they were made with 1/8” steel plate and rated for 12K winches so I’m guessing I’m okay. I have had the opportunity to use the winch several times (one time assisting the tires as noted above in pulling my JTR uphill in the mud and another time Assisting me pulling a Jeep out of a 3 foot drop off with my tires turning and another Jeeps tires turning between me and the stuck one - daisy chained ) and haven’t had any issue whatsoever but am usually very cautious when winching having seen people do stupid shit with fatal results.


what does all this mean? Use your head and BE CAREFUL! The winch you have will work if you’re smart about it and don’t try to do more than its capable of. Use the winch as an assist and not the only means of pulling force and you’ll be fine.
By far the best and most comprehensive answer in a forum on the topic that I have come across. Thank you for helping me be able to work smarter on winching in the future.

I suppose now I only need a 20k rated snatch block to complement my Smittybilt 17500lb one. New winch rope comes in Saturday. It is raining all weekend and week here so I will find a spot to try and winch with for practice when it clears up
 

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By far the best and most comprehensive answer in a forum on the topic that I have come across. Thank you for helping me be able to work smarter on winching in the future.

I suppose now I only need a 20k rated snatch block to complement my Smittybilt 17500lb one. New winch rope comes in Saturday. It is raining all weekend and week here so I will find a spot to try and winch with for practice when it clears up
The 17500 one you have will be fine as long as you don’t try to pull multiple vehicles at once. Lol

Just remember the weakest link in your system and you’ll be fine. My winch is rated 15k and I have the same snatch block I think (smittybuilt recovery set with the 17500 pulley). It came with 9500lb d-rings and so I bought some 12k ones but any of the bigger 15k/20k ones won’t fit in the ring mounts on the bumper because the threaded bolts are too fat so the d-rings are my weakest link.

Even though I could double or triple over the cable with pulleys and get the winch to pull 30k, my rings limit me to 12k so that’s the most I’ll pull. Just imagine that heavy hook flying through the air with 10,000 lbs of force propelling it and you can imagine the carnage possible. Always use a weight bag on the line or rope. I’ve seen a cable snap and slice through a small tree the diameter of my leg like butter when no bag was applied. Hopefully that mental image can get anybody that’s winching to think twice and be safe about it.
 

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About to pickup a Badlands Apex 12000lb winch from Harbor Freight today. I know the manager at my local one and he's giving me his discount plus letting me use the 20% off which will put me at around $400 for it. Was about to buy a new in box 10000lb Smittybilt from a guy locally for $400 before he told me what he would do for me on the Apex.
 

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You would, yes. While the winch may only be pulling 10k lbs, the line between the snatch block/pulley and whatever you're winching will have to bear the full 20k lbs load.
No, this isn't right. The pulley doubles the total work capacity, but the load on the line doesn't change.
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