What is an unpopular opinion you have in the Jeep community?

[Kajo]

as a retired Soldier it is cool to know the history of the wave and I will carry on the Military tradition. FYI, I drove a 71 CJ-5 in the 90's and the Jeep wave was there but there were so few on the road and we didn't wave at Square headlights LOL.

Sponsored

 

[ChrisNLA]

A few of y’all already mentioned it, but the word “overlanding” has lost all meaning within the last decade. And don’t even get me started on the gatekeeping culture surrounding it. It’s probably my number one source of irritation in and out all outdoor circles

Bonus: “overlanding” is just car camping with better marketing

I probably touched on this already, but I just want to beat the horse further...

Always drives me batty when someone new shows up to an overlanding page and says "I just bought X and want to get into overlanding. What do I need?"

Bruh. You want to go camping. Put your camping gear in the truck and go. Whether you are moving everyday or once a week its the same needs. Something to sleep in, something to sleep on, and something to eat/drink - oversimplifying but you get it...

Inevitably they end up on FB marketplace selling a roof or bed rack with the same three things always attached to it - an RTT, traction boards, and Rotopax cans with a comment in the end about camping sucks or I'm buying a travel trailer...

Not saying nobody needs those things mind you - just seems so many people get lead directly into the overlanding pit of doom

 

[Empty Pockets]

That mods that are truly needed and practical are mods. Everything else is just vanity “look at me” shit.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Lastly never been ducked and hope to never be ducked, listen I know I drive a jeep !

Nope, it's still dumb.

I got ducked the other day. A cute little guy. I appreciated the sentiment of the ducker and put it on my dash with the small collection of ducks I've been given over the past 2 years. Almost all of them I can recall where I was.

It's a nice gesture when someone gives you something besides a hard time and at the least it's harmless.

Folks that have an issue with something like that have an issue.

 

[Chrysler-Factory-Warranty]

This should cover the whole “should I wave” question! ?

The Jeep Wave Is the Jeep Wave. All should wave if your not looking for community buy a Bronco https://www.chrysler-factory-warranty.com/what-is-the-jeep-wave/


Love the duck in the middle!

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

I probably touched on this already, but I just want to beat the horse further...

Always drives me batty when someone new shows up to an overlanding page and says "I just bought X and want to get into overlanding. What do I need?"

Bruh. You want to go camping. Put your camping gear in the truck and go. Whether you are moving everyday or once a week its the same needs. Something to sleep in, something to sleep on, and something to eat/drink - oversimplifying but you get it...

Inevitably they end up on FB marketplace selling a roof or bed rack with the same three things always attached to it - an RTT, traction boards, and Rotopax cans with a comment in the end about camping sucks or I'm buying a travel trailer...

Not saying nobody needs those things mind you - just seems so many people get lead directly into the overlanding pit of doom

Yeah, to me the only practical distinction between “overlanding” and I use the term myself, and car camping is the off road aspect. But it occurred to me the other day that despite doing hard sections of hard trails, where I end up camping is usually in a place where I could have accessed it in something like a Subaru wagon with zero concern. In OBX all manner of vehicles end up on the beach during daylight and during turtle nesting season the only camping is campground camping where my rig looks pretentious (not that I really care) Back in the day, even with Jeeps and OG Broncos and Toyotas we never called it overlanding. Going out was important, not what we called it.

There’s this an aspect of this George Carlin riffed about. The rise of euphemistic language and how it doesn’t really add information. In this case, it’s driven by marketing, the social currency of “influencing,” and the importation of exotic-seeming activities from places like Australia and South Africa.

Now regarding the net effect of all of this, there’s a double edge sword. By calling it something sexier than car camping it’s really created a phenomenon and the market to go with it. That’s lead to an explosion of advancements in products that make the whole experience of car camping much more pleasant. People laughably also call it “vehicle-based camping” another case of adding complexity to the language without adding more information. Companies are scrambling to put out clever products to make the whole experience much more pleasant. I for one think that’s great.

But I can’t help but thinking that for a lot of people there’s a rude awaking after buying tons of gear and realizing that fundamentally this is sleeping, eating and pooping outside with the mosquitoes, noseeums, rain and heat. I can’t see how that really affects me in any way negatively or otherwise, and I don’t want to gatekeep. It’s just a curiosity of mine. I do find it a bit odd how many RTT I see on random vehicles nowadays. But, I haven’t experienced traffic jams of clueless new overlanders on trails, only traffic jams of Jeep clubs ?. The overlanding community generally speaking is more environmentally conscious which is good. In Virginia a lot of places I 4wheel have always been haunted by red necks, which means shell casings, broken glass, spray paint and trash. This is frowned upon amongst overlanders. Maybe overlanding represents a mild gentrification of outdoor spaces but I’m not so sure that’s a bad thing. I’ve yet to see a Trail Recon video where Brad, after spending the evening drunkenly shooting his AR in random directions, smashes a case of empty beer bottles in the still smoldering fire ring and drives off. So far in my experience, this overlanding thing is mostly a benign or perhaps positive development even if the use of euphemistic language is a bit cringy and seeing a ballooning percentage of SUVs sporting RTTs is just funny.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

On the whole wave controversy:

20 years ago the political scientist Robert Putnam wrote a book “Bowling Alone: America’s Declining Social Capital” a historical analysis that was both deeply sad and prescient. Essentially the waning of in-person community interactions, he used the fading of bowing leagues as just one example, was having a corrosive effect on American societal cohesion and the proper functioning of democracy. Since then isolation and political tribalism has only gotten worse. The rise of dopamine-juking algorithms determining who and what we interact with has only accelerated this. I’ve experienced really good friends of mine, who only 10 or so years ago our conversations would have revolved around grilling, camping and other guy things, now talking about wild conspiracy nonsense and advocating, not knowing or making assumptions about my political views, because I choose not to wear them on my sleeve or bumper, advocating that people who believe like I do about some esoteric policy issue, should be rounded up and murdered along with my family. And I’m not taking about folks living in a bunker planning the revolution. I’m taking about well paid suburban professionals. And every week I hear about another friend or former work colleague that’s fallen down the well of sectarian, conspiracy nonsense. Even in non-political terms, we’re increasing socially isolated.

Obviously, the Jeep Wave isn't some magical solution to the manufactured polarization-for-profit that grips this country, nor the economics or the policy decisions that drive isolation. However, in my opinion anything, literally ANYTHING, that we can do to acknowledge some other persons shared experience or find common ground, even little rubber ducks, is a net positive and worth doing. The superficiality of a wave or rubber duck probably protects these things from devolving into more tribalism where we start trashing Broncos or Toyotas. I thankfully haven’t seen any evidence of that happening. On the trails people get along. This community cuts across every demographic and political persuasion and that’s a great thing we should celebrate. I do it with a wave.

 

[ChrisNLA]

Yeah, to me the only practical distinction between “overlanding” and I use the term myself, and car camping is the off road aspect. But it occurred to me the other day that despite doing hard sections of hard trails, where I end up camping is usually in a place where I could have accessed it in something like a Subaru wagon with zero concern. In OBX all manner of vehicles end up on the beach during daylight and during turtle nesting season the only camping is campground camping where my rig looks pretentious (not that I really care) Back in the day, even with Jeeps and OG Broncos and Toyotas we never called it overlanding. Going out was important, not what we called it.

There’s this an aspect of this George Carlin riffed about. The rise of euphemistic language and how it doesn’t really add information. In this case, it’s driven by marketing, the social currency of “influencing,” and the importation of exotic-seeming activities from places like Australia and South Africa.

Now regarding the net effect of all of this, there’s a double edge sword. By calling it something sexier than car camping it’s really created a phenomenon and the market to go with it. That’s lead to an explosion of advancements in products that make the whole experience of car camping much more pleasant. People laughably also call it “vehicle-based camping” another case of adding complexity to the language without adding more information. Companies are scrambling to put out clever products to make the whole experience much more pleasant. I for one think that’s great.

But I can’t help but thinking that for a lot of people there’s a rude awaking after buying tons of gear and realizing that fundamentally this is sleeping, eating and pooping outside with the mosquitoes, noseeums, rain and heat. I can’t see how that really affects me in any way negatively or otherwise, and I don’t want to gatekeep. It’s just a curiosity of mine. I do find it a bit odd how many RTT I see on random vehicles nowadays. But, I haven’t experienced traffic jams of clueless new overlanders on trails, only traffic jams of Jeep clubs ?. The overlanding community generally speaking is more environmentally conscious which is good. In Virginia a lot of places I 4wheel have always been haunted by red necks, which means shell casings, broken glass, spray paint and trash. This is frowned upon amongst overlanders. Maybe overlanding represents a mild gentrification of outdoor spaces but I’m not so sure that’s a bad thing. I’ve yet to see a Trail Recon video where Brad, after spending the evening drunkenly shooting his AR in random directions, smashes a case of empty beer bottles in the still smoldering fire ring and drives off. So far in my experience, this overlanding thing is mostly a benign or perhaps positive development even if the use of euphemistic language is a bit cringy and seeing a ballooning percentage of SUVs sporting RTTs is just funny.

Excellent take on it.

In the end if everyone is enjoying what they are doing - then generally speaking, good for them.

I have my opinions about ducks, overlanders, Jeeps with goofy names, Jeeps that look like they crashed into the JC Whitney warehouse, and much more. Almost to the point where I began to get standoffish from groups or alienate them entirely. I found I didn't enjoy that either, and this year took a break from all of the local clubs all together and examined where I really sat. Turns out, like a lot of folks I'm right in the middle. Anyway - drifting off topic.

It has definitely made camping more comfortable than ever before. I won't complain about that one.

I do agree that it seems 'overlanders' are generally better stewards of the land than 'offroaders'. This is a generalization and in no way an attack on any group - you can find a bad egg anywhere. I personally find some enjoyment in setting up camp for the night then going for a walk around the area to stretch my legs and find a bit of trash to pack out - doing my part if you will.

I think I am selling a roof top tent soon, but I don't own traction boards or Rotopax cans, and I love my rack -so I think I'm safe for now

 

[ChrisNLA]

On the whole wave controversy:

20 years ago the political scientist Robert Putnam wrote a book “Bowling Alone: America’s Declining Social Capital” a historical analysis that was both deeply sad and prescient. Essentially the waning of in-person community interactions, he used the fading of bowing leagues as just one example, was having a corrosive effect on American societal cohesion and the proper functioning of democracy. Since then isolation and political tribalism has only gotten worse. The rise of dopamine-juking algorithms determining who and what we interact with has only accelerated this. I’ve experienced really good friends of mine, who only 10 or so years ago our conversations would have revolved around grilling, camping and other guy things, now talking about wild conspiracy nonsense and advocating, not knowing or making assumptions about my political views, because I choose not to wear them on my sleeve or bumper, advocating that people who believe like I do about some esoteric policy issue, should be rounded up and murdered along with my family. And I’m not taking about folks living in a bunker planning the revolution. I’m taking about well paid suburban professionals. And every week I hear about another friend or former work colleague that’s fallen down the well of sectarian, conspiracy nonsense. Even in non-political terms, we’re increasing socially isolated.

Obviously, the Jeep Wave isn't some magical solution to the manufactured polarization-for-profit that grips this country, nor the economics or the policy decisions that drive isolation. However, in my opinion anything, literally ANYTHING, that we can do to acknowledge some other persons shared experience or find common ground, even little rubber ducks, is a net positive and worth doing. The superficiality of a wave or rubber duck probably protects these things from devolving into more tribalism where we start trashing Broncos or Toyotas. I thankfully haven’t seen any evidence of that happening. On the trails people get along. This community cuts across every demographic and political persuasion and that’s a great thing we should celebrate. I do it with a wave.

I really like this.

For several years I was part of a local Jeep club, and we did events often. Primarily parking lot type events, back road cruises, ice cream, lunch, and dinner meetups, and the occasional wheeling trip (offroading is severely limited in southern Louisiana). I met a lot of great people, had good fun. As a group of us got more and more info offroading and camping, we distanced further and further away from the main club. We don't name our Jeeps, ducks are stupid, don't wave, we only go offroading and camping, we don't do parking lot meetups, etc.

And now we're the same handful of people eating pizza once a month.

Well - I'm beginning to make full circle as this became very isolated. The pool of people to do things with got thinner and thinner. The views narrower - so much in fact that even I don't feel like I fit into this group so well anymore. I've been branching out to our local (gasp) overlanding group because I want to broaden my horizons back up to various people, events, vehicles, etc.

No shade on my friends of course - but for me, it's time to open back up some.

I could go on - but I think I'll ponder this further and come back.

 

[Hamandcamo]

The overlanding community generally speaking is more environmentally conscious which is good. In Virginia a lot of places I 4wheel have always been haunted by red necks, which means shell casings, broken glass, spray paint and trash. This is frowned upon amongst overlanders.

I'd disagree, It's mainly the college granola/rei/yuppie crowd at this point. Max patch in 2020 is a great example of them screwing up nature, ironically. I think the shell casings/trash are a symptom of having most your gun ranges being shut down and same with your trails, causing areas to experience increased traffic, causing a higher probability of seeing that stuff. It's the same reasons all the street takeovers happen. You make the cost of a track day so expensive, shut down tracks, and expect people to not enjoy the hobby? The solutions is better stewardship training in general, i agree 100%, then add more trails and gun ranges.
It's the same with Uwharrie. The trash is ridiculous there. Is it exclusively due to the redneck locals? Probably not, lol. It's clear we need more trails in the south, if anything.

 

[cranbiz]

It's the same with Uwharrie. The trash is ridiculous there. Is it exclusively due to the redneck locals? Probably not, lol. It's clear we need more trails in the south, if anything.

While some of the full size vehicle crowd shoulders some of the blame, a good percentage of the trash (especially the beer cans, etc.) is from the SXS crowd. The net effect is the same. The full size people are the only ones that show up once a month for a work day though.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

I'd disagree, It's mainly the college granola/rei/yuppie crowd at this point. Max patch in 2020 is a great example of them screwing up nature, ironically. I think the shell casings/trash are a symptom of having most your gun ranges being shut down and same with your trails, causing areas to experience increased traffic, causing a higher probability of seeing that stuff. It's the same reasons all the street takeovers happen. You make the cost of a track day so expensive, shut down tracks, and expect people to not enjoy the hobby? The solutions is better stewardship training in general, i agree 100%, then add more trails and gun ranges.
It's the same with Uwharrie. The trash is ridiculous there. Is it exclusively due to the redneck locals? Probably not, lol. It's clear we need more trails in the south, if anything.

The REI, Yuppie, granola crowd is generally not known for destroying these places with beer bottles, tagging rock outcroppings with spray paint and leaving shell casings all over the place. They’re definitely not the ones dumping refrigerators and derelict old cars in the national forest. The dumping generally is locals. But the ones trashing the forests when they’re out ostensively enjoying them aren’t necessarily locals. Its one of the great American myths that redneck is synonymous with rural (local) or poor folks. It’s more of a set of interests mixed with an f.u. attitude.

The demographics in rural Virginia are pretty striking. Some of these counties are over 75-90% unemployed. Diseases of despair like drug addiction are rampant. That’s not the demo that can afford a modded vehicle and a bunch of guns. I agree the folks trashing these places aren’t locals but they are rednecks. Just as rural doesn’t mean redneck, urban/suburban doesn’t mean yuppie or granola. I went to Virginia Tech and I can testify that a lot of students there were proud rednecks. I’ve lived in Hampton Roads my whole life and there’s a lot of rednecks around here. My former brother in laws family had a private jet and they we’re definitely rednecks. People with a $250k Searay throwing batteries in Smith Mountain Lake. You’ve got to be able to afford the off road vehicle, guns and ammo. Raising hell is expensive!

You’re absolutely right that college kids are definitely a sizeable contributor to trashing these places. Young people generally are. But so are urban and exurban rednecks with money. About the only people in rural areas that have any money are the local gentry, the people who own the car dealership or other sizeable businesses. They’re not trashing these places although their bored kids probably are.

I agree that the dearth of public gun ranges is a big issue but I don’t think it really explains the shell casings. I just went through that myself and ended up joining the Isaac Walton League so that I now have a range that I can be part of keeping open and taking care of. I love it but it’s sad that I’ve got to find a exclusive private place to enjoy a hobby. My other alternative was spending $20-40/hour. Down here there are no public ranges except Charles City County which is only open for hunting season site ins. But I was just out in the western part of the state where there are several nice government-provided ranges. That hasn’t stopped people from firing automatic rifles all hours of the night right off the trails in the JNF and GWNF. I think the gun thing is more a case of the explosion in ubiquitous ownership of automatic rifles and people confusing their 2A rights with a general attitude that they can and should do anything they want whenever and wherever they want regardless of how it affects others. It’s the same attitude that conflates owning an AR-15, I myself own them, and thinking that slinging one over your shoulder and walking into a Chipotle is an okay thing to do just because it’s technically legal. It’s a trashy mentality rather than lack of places to shoot. I mean, I couldn’t find a good place to shoot for a while either but that didn’t mean I just went out to a park where people were camping and started randomly firing my gun. I was raised better than that.

You also hit on something else which is important, and it’s something that I personally haven’t seen (my reference to trail traffic jams), but I know it exists and maybe this is an example of a negative of the overlanding craze. The more popular outdoor activities are, like overlanding or even hiking, the more pressure it puts on these places generally. And yeah, the very people who supposedly want to protect these places become a big part of the problem causing their decline and subsequent access issues.

But the other issue is poor public investment. I’ve been wheeling in Va for 30 years and I’ve seen the condition in the forests declining. I’ve also seen very little investment on the part of the state beyond small fairly localized state parks. Where most people go off roading is federal land and good luck seeing an agent of the government out there. I contrast that to Pennsylvania where when I went to Bald Eagle state park along the MABDR I was able to drive for miles and miles off road (overlanding, you could call it) and camp. In Pennsylvania you have to reserve these primitive camp sites along the trails, although they’re free. This rubbed me the wrong way, since I’m used to showing up when I want, where I want. The difference however is that the state of Pennsylvania clearly maintains these places. It’s clean. There’s no broken glass, or junk or fire rings full of crushed beer cans. In Virginia it’s getting harder and harder to camp at places I’ve been going to for years because there’s so much broken glass and trash. At Big Levels outside Wintergreen, you can’t even put a tent on the ground from all the glass anymore. That’s the trade off, less bureaucracy, but the place is trashed.

When I go down to OI the place is immaculate because that’s a National Park, not just federal land. There are ranger’s everywhere. So, you’re not going to take your dog off leash. I still do in short bursts to play frisbee. You’re not supposed to have open beverage containers but everyone still has beer. You just can’t raise hell. The rangers will drive up and down the beach and will park and just watch people. They’re super friendly but it still feels like you’re being watched by the man and of course our taxes are paying for it. The trade off is everything is super clean, the bathrooms are maintained daily, it’s safe for kids and the environment isn’t getting trashed so it’s there for the next people.

 

[Hootbro]

I probably touched on this already, but I just want to beat the horse further...

Always drives me batty when someone new shows up to an overlanding page and says "I just bought X and want to get into overlanding. What do I need?"

Bruh. You want to go camping. Put your camping gear in the truck and go. Whether you are moving everyday or once a week its the same needs. Something to sleep in, something to sleep on, and something to eat/drink - oversimplifying but you get it...

Inevitably they end up on FB marketplace selling a roof or bed rack with the same three things always attached to it - an RTT, traction boards, and Rotopax cans with a comment in the end about camping sucks or I'm buying a travel trailer...

Not saying nobody needs those things mind you - just seems so many people get lead directly into the overlanding pit of doom

I cannot remember who to attribute it too, but I once heard/read someone say "Overlanding" is code for I am afraid to camp and sleep on the ground.

Slowing moving into the same category as Vegans and Crossfitters of people who cannot shut up about it. I think all three groups meet up at my local Trader Joe's

 

[Hamandcamo]

But the ones trashing the forests when they’re out ostensively enjoying them aren’t necessarily locals. Its one of the great American myths that redneck is synonymous with rural (local) or poor folks. It’s more of a set of interests mixed with an f.u. attitude.

The demographics in rural Virginia are pretty striking. Some of these counties are over 75-90% unemployed. Diseases of despair like drug addiction are rampant. That’s not the demo that can afford a modded vehicle and a bunch of guns. I agree the folks trashing these places aren’t locals but they are rednecks. Just as rural doesn’t mean redneck, urban/suburban doesn’t mean yuppie or granola. I went to Virginia Tech and I can testify that a lot of students there were proud rednecks. I’ve lived in Hampton Roads my whole life and there’s a lot of rednecks around here. My former brother in laws family had a private jet and they we’re definitely rednecks. People with a $250k Searay throwing batteries in Smith Mountain Lake. You’ve got to be able to afford the off road vehicle, guns and ammo. Raising hell is expensive!

I get where you're coming from, but their attitude is more of a "après moi le déluge" one. This ideology of not caring for the future transcends classes and political ideologies, and can be found in all walks of life. For optics sake, most normal people associate redneck with rural, southern farmers (the locals you're referring to). Using this terminology compounds to the point where today, people associate it with the locals and they end up getting a bad rep. So, I still stand behind my previous statement that rednecks are not causing it. It's people who don't give a shit, or care to. You're right, I've seen millionaires as well, regardless of background or political affiliation, have this attitude.

On Topic:
40's are pointless on this vehicle for 99% of people.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

I get where you're coming from, but their attitude is more of a "après moi le déluge" one. This ideology of not caring for the future transcends classes and political ideologies, and can be found in all walks of life. For optics sake, most normal people associate redneck with rural, southern farmers (the locals you're referring to). Using this terminology compounds to the point where today, people associate it with the locals and they end up getting a bad rep. So, I still stand behind my previous statement that rednecks are not causing it. It's people who don't give a shit, or care to. You're right, I've seen millionaires as well, regardless of background or political affiliation, have this attitude.

I guess where I get the redneck part is the combination of southern and the interest in off-roading, guns, drinking beer and raising hell often in combination with each other. I honestly have no idea what Midwesterners or New Englanders do. I don’t know what demographic out in California trashes outdoor spaces. Concert goers seems to be one group. I’ve got some cousins who live in Jersey and my exes extended family is from Michigan. They drink “pop.” They might as well be from Jupiter. Last time I was in Jersey some guy tried to pump my gas and I almost throttled him. I quickly went back to Virginia.

I’ve got a lot of Scots Irish Appalachia folk in me and I know my people. l also don’t see it as necessarily an insult and a lot of people would describe themselves as proudly redneck. I paddle towards the banjo music and BBQ is a food, not an event. The event is a pig pickin’

Tying the trashing of these places with rednecks is more about the artifacts left behind (.223 casings, 12 gauge shells, cheap beer cans) than the some greater propensity for rednecks to trash places than some other group nationwide. I’m taking about my observations in VA. Yeah, there’s definitely an attitude that goes along with it that’s less prevalent in the overlanding crowd. But in Virginia, that’s who’s traditionally been out there before overlanding started getting popular. I’ve never seen a convoy of Jeep club people shooting guns out their windows. But I’ve seen a convoy of guys in buggies doing that.

It’s not like I don’t encounter these guys on the trails all the time and interact with them, mostly positively, so it’s not some anthropologic mystery I’m putting together. I’ve been in these groups when people are shooting up the place, smashing shit, the music is blasting, titties are out and people are hooting and hollering having a good time. It wasn’t a bunch of overlanding nerds talking about RTTs and their total solar wattage or gram weenie through hikers or birders looking for warblers or master naturalists doing a plant survey.

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