Anyone else use this ATF in their Gladiator 8-speed?

[g2020]

Well you can add my intervals being…. Once a year (approximately 30k kms) at about May, before our hot ambient temps kick in. Transmission has never seen temps 190+. Just because it can or the oil flash points are probably double + that, why would I want to see it or even push it there? Why?

If I add your use case to the survey, someone we know might blow a gasket. I appreciate the info and I'll think about adding it.

I imagine a world in which the best expert would address the glaring contradiction in "lifetime" ATF guidance. The contradiction is real.

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[JTGuy]

With the cold hard reverse clunk and the hard 3-4 shift the truth is that my trans has failed but still works. FCAis not going to fix it till it does not move the JT. Some say it will never fail. I will just keep driving it till something changes. Maybe my first cold reverse will be at 2500RPM. I can't sell or trade it. I really don' t feel good about a long trip with it.

 

[Hootbro]

FCAis not going to fix it till it does not move the JT. Some say it will never fail.

You might have to help that along. Just saying.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

No, ATF is very low detergent, so there's no debris saturated fluid! If anything, it will lose a certain amount of viscosity.
AFT is made to DROP OUT any "debris" or particles. It never circulates with the fluid!

I appreciate the explanation from all your years tearing down and rebuilding you’ve done and the science explained.

What is never discussed here dealing with these transmissions or any transmission quite frankly are the oil analysis reports. Why? Cause nobody does them.

For all the discussion on analysis reports, 99.99999999% (not exactly, …. I’m sure there’s more 9’s in there) they’re all discussing the engine oil. There’s a couple YouTube’s and maybe, well….me, will have a report done when I’ve done my pan drops. So, what you are not understanding when I speak of “debris in suspension” with a transmission that’s encouraged to go 60k + miles is the wear metals that the lab shows IS in “suspension” and continues to rise.

These metals (microscopic) aren’t just sitting on the bottom of the pan, though there is that factor, they are in solution and do get past the filter and because the “lifetime” folks believe the authors of the book know best to leave the fluid alone, the lab reports show a steady climb in the wear numbers.

Why are the numbers on a steady climb from 0, at day one, to into the hundreds if not thousands ppm when a transmission suffers some catastrophic event, cause the oil is left alone and the suspended wear metals are doing what they do best, they make more destructive friends.

Anyone who doesn’t look at an oil analysis report is only guessing the component’s condition and if they just do what the engineers have authored in the book, “things should be ok”.

You say I baby it because my transmission never sees 200 and the photo I had posted with ambient temps at 86* but transmission shows 176, that’s a result of the 4 pan drops done from early on up to last May. I don’t baby this truck, I am a grandpa but I certainly don’t drive like one.

Tolerances have been made during its break-in and so on but frequent pan drops takes out “most” of the suspension metals (that cause heat, in its own right) …we know the engine coolant also contributes to heat flowing through the transmission heater but we’re just hyper focusing on what “heat” derives from that microscopic metal tearing by other surfaces. If left in there will create heat. IF removed (pan drop) as in what I’ve seen, temps drop. After the 3rd pan drop, temps fall, and now 3 months after my 4th pan drop, another decrease in temperature.

It’s good science to be on top of this, not forgotten. Ya, lab said they can’t measure oxidation in my oil, haven’t put on enough milage, even at 30k kms each report. Does anyone know at what point, what milage oxidation starts?? Do I want to find out for myself, for everyone else when that is? Not really.

Are there multiple other owners here that have 60k+ miles and have done nothing to their “lifetime” oil that could pull a sample and find out, hell ya. Has anyone specifically asked for an oxidation report or had a lab confirm the 8/9 atf is full or semi-syn? The lab needs measurable oxidation to find out. Forget the book, do a high milage report to confirm or deny the type of atf.

I love the science, I absolutely hate guessing, and I love seeing positive results from good practice.

 

[Stan H]

I appreciate the explanation from all your years tearing down and rebuilding you’ve done and the science explained.

What is never discussed here dealing with these transmissions or any transmission quite frankly are the oil analysis reports. Why? Cause nobody does them.

For all the discussion on analysis reports, 99.99999999% (not exactly, …. I’m sure there’s more 9’s in there) they’re all discussing the engine oil. There’s a couple YouTube’s and maybe, well….me, will have a report done when I’ve done my pan drops. So, what you are not understanding when I speak of “debris in suspension” with a transmission that’s encouraged to go 60k + miles is the wear metals that the lab shows IS in “suspension” and continues to rise.

These metals (microscopic) aren’t just sitting on the bottom of the pan, though there is that factor, they are in solution and do get past the filter and because the “lifetime” folks believe the authors of the book know best to leave the fluid alone, the lab reports show a steady climb in the wear numbers.

Why are the numbers on a steady climb from 0, at day one, to into the hundreds if not thousands ppm when a transmission suffers some catastrophic event, cause the oil is left alone and the suspended wear metals are doing what they do best, they make more destructive friends.

Anyone who doesn’t look at an oil analysis report is only guessing the component’s condition and if they just do what the engineers have authored in the book, “things should be ok”.

You say I baby it because my transmission never sees 200 and the photo I had posted with ambient temps at 86* but transmission shows 176, that’s a result of the 4 pan drops done from early on up to last May. I don’t baby this truck, I am a grandpa but I certainly don’t drive like one.

Tolerances have been made during its break-in and so on but frequent pan drops takes out “most” of the suspension metals (that cause heat, in its own right) …we know the engine coolant also contributes to heat flowing through the transmission heater but we’re just hyper focusing on what “heat” derives from that microscopic metal tearing by other surfaces. If left in there will create heat. IF removed (pan drop) as in what I’ve seen after the 3rd drop, temps fall, and now 3 months after my 4th pan drops, another drop in temperature.

It’s good science to be on top of this, not forgotten. Ya, lab said they can’t measure oxidation in my oil, haven’t put on enough milage, even at 30k kms each report. Does anyone know at what point, what milage oxidation starts?? Do I want to find out for myself, for everyone else when that is? Not really.

Are there multiple other owners here that have 60k+ miles and have done nothing to their “lifetime” oil that could pull a sample and find out, hell ya. Has anyone specifically asked for an oxidation report or had a lab confirm the 8/9 atf is full or semi-syn? Forget the book, do the report and confirm or deny.

I love the science, I absolutely hate guessing, and I love seeing positive results from good practice.

Well written , I dont know enough to really answer, but my guess as to the make up of the 8&9 fluid is that it is Full-synthetic. Now its only a guess I am probably wrong soooo whats the answer ? Semi- or Full. Reason I say full because No semi- oil could last as long as ZF and Stellantis want it to go too

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Well written , I dont know enough to really answer, but my guess as to the make up of the 8&9 fluid is that it is Full-synthetic. Now its only a guess I am probably wrong soooo whats the answer ? Semi- or Full. Reason I say full because No semi- oil could last as long as ZF and Stellantis want it to go too

The only conclusive answer I got from the lab was “the synthetic spike they look for is what tells them if the oil is full or semi. My sample wasn’t driven long enough @30k kms to tell. There was however a much smaller spike they saw and did compare it to other “known full synthetics”.

I asked can he tell from that what the 8/9 speed is? He said “no”. They need to see high milage oil to tell.

 

[Stan H]

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...-full-synthetic-just-like-zf-lifeguard.76817/

 

[Maximus Gladius]

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...-full-synthetic-just-like-zf-lifeguard.76817/

Interesting read. For what’s its worth, I won’t save a few bucks to buy Max Life or ZF Lifeguard off Amazon. What ever I spend on this truck is a business write off anyway so whatever the price is for the Mopar 8/9, at least I can see, hold and use it. My money going the other way… won’t see a thing for my generosity.

 

[Stan H]

Next question is ZF and Mopar exact copies ? Made by 2 different facilities ..hmmm

 

[JTGuy]

I have seen my trans temp go 220+ and stay there many times. Could that be part of my trans issues? I don't tow.

 

[Hootbro]

Next question is ZF and Mopar exact copies ? Made by 2 different facilities ..hmmm

They meet a specification which does not necessarily mean they would be exact copies of each other if made by two different formulators but they would be close.

 

[Stan H]

They meet a specification which does not necessarily mean they would be exact copies of each other if made by two different formulators but they would be close.

So it is sorta like fraternal twins

 

[Maximus Gladius]

I have seen my trans temp go 220+ and stay there many times. Could that be part of my trans issues? I don't tow.

For me, if I saw that, I’d have a sh$&! But many have seen those temps before and I’d guess the consensus would be from some who are wiser and much smarter that the oil and tranny can go even hotter before there’s concern. Heat kills trannies but I don’t know at what temperature heat starts doing damage. @ShadowsPapa would definitely be the one to say.

 

[DanW]

Next question is ZF and Mopar exact copies ? Made by 2 different facilities ..hmmm

It is likely somehow licensed, and/or the formula is shared.

Probably a similar, but tighter, arrangement as with the ATF+4 formulation.

 

[g2020]

They meet a specification which does not necessarily mean they would be exact copies of each other if made by two different formulators but they would be close.

MOPAR 8 & 9 Speed ATF (68218925AB) is an exact equivalent to ZF LifeguardFluid 9 (not the other way around). ZF is the licensor. I have read that Shell manufactures MOPAR 68218925AB. I am not a ZF, Stellantis, or Shell insider, but it is evident that the formula and the manufacturing process are very strictly managed. A limited number of vehicle OEM ATF brands, shown in the table below, are associated with the ZF approval number for ZF LifeguardFluid 9.

In contrast, ZF LifeguardFluid 8 is not an exact equivalent, but it is the original ZF-approved and ZF-branded lubricant for the ZF 8HP50 / Chrysler 850RE automatic transmission.

From the perspective of ZF and Jeep, no aftermarket brand is considered an "equivalent". However, as you have pointed out in another post, the ZF, Dex VI, and Toyota WS standards are close cousins. At least five aftermarket manufacturers claim that their ATF can be used in the place of MOPAR 68218925AB.

MOPAR is manufactured in the United States, and ZF is manufactured in Germany. While it is true that not all oil comes from the same field or depot, the variations can be (and are) resolved during the manufacturing process.

The best way to settle this is to test MOPAR and ZF, but I'll leave the testing to someone else.

Key takeaway: The ATF part numbers shown in the following table meet the definition of the words "or equivalent" printed in the owner's manual (see doc #7 in ATF Equivalents)
- ZF LifeguardFluid 8 is a gray area

See doc #1 in ATF Equivalents. Here is the key part:

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