Discussion: 2020 Ford Raptor or 2020 Jeep Gladiator

[WhatExit?]

I traded my 2014 JKUR in on my 2017 Ford Raptor, my 2nd one (1st was a 2010 Gen1 Raptor w/ 5.4L V-8).

* The only liability with the Raptor is its width. I've off roaded Raptors all over the place and gotten them through some very tight spaces and I have gotten a good amount of desert pin striping on it. THAT'S the issue with the Raptor. Otherwise it will go wherever you want to take it - it's terrific off road but it is much larger, wider and it's not a Jeep (but will you take the Jeep on even more challenging trails?)

* The Jeep will be more capable off road but that's primarily in regard to narrower trails and trails with much more challenging terrain (larger rocks, etc.) where approach, break-over and departure angles matter. But will you take the Jeep on those more challenging (tighter) trails?

In regard to all around daily driving quality the Jeeps cannot compare to the Raptor. It's as smooth as butter on road and off at higher speeds than the Jeep will be comfortable driving.

If daily driving quality is important there is no comparison

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[Oilburner]

I find it interesting people comparing a fixed-top-and-doors Baja racer truck and an open air pickup w/ outstanding crawl ratio.

 

[steffen707]

What I don't do is act like a dick when someone calls me out for having incorrect facts. I take that as a learning opportunity, if you look through the threads enough I am sure you can find some mistakes I have made. Maybe it just seems like I have all the facts when compared to what I assume is an extremely low amount of knowledge you possess. Granted I don't know you, but in my experience those who are quickest to be defensive and insult others almost universally are hiding their own ignorance.

Now i gotta read the rest of this technical mumbo jumbo!

 

[Big-Foot]

I don't have all the facts, hence I start threads with the phrase "educate me on..." see here: https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/educate-me-on-wheels.14173/

What I don't do is act like a dick when someone calls me out for having incorrect facts. I take that as a learning opportunity, if you look through the threads enough I am sure you can find some mistakes I have made. Maybe it just seems like I have all the facts when compared to what I assume is an extremely low amount of knowledge you possess. Granted I don't know you, but in my experience those who are quickest to be defensive and insult others almost universally are hiding their own ignorance.

Now on to you questions. What is different in the 3.6 of the JL vs the 3.6 in the JK? Most of the articles written about the changes were from 2015/2016. That is because 2016 was the first year the upgraded Pentastar was used. It was first used in the G.C. and the Durango. FCA did not switch over to the upgrade 3.6 in the wrangler until the JK to JL change was made. This is noted below and I highlighted it in purple for you. So while you are reading about the changes keep in mind that the FACTS were written before the JL was produced and therefor not directly referenced, however the JL does indeed have the upgraded 3.6. This is also evidence in the fact the the JL calls for 5 quarts of 0W20 while the JK called for 6 quarts of 5W20. The newer engine uses a full quart less of oil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Pentastar_engine
Pentastar upgrade[edit]
For 2016, FCA released an updated version of the 3.6 L engine for the Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango. This engine now featured two-stage variable valve lift (VVL), a cooled EGR, a new intake manifold, new fuel injectors, and new ignition coils. It also features upgrades to the variable valve timing (VVT) system, an increased compression ratio (11.3:1), lower internal friction and lower weight. These improvements help to increase power as well as efficiency.[10] The new version, however, has lost its flex-fuel capability.

Code Displacement Bore Stroke Years Power SAE Torque SAE
3.6 L; 219.9 cu in (3,604 cc) 96 mm (3.78 in) 83 mm (3.27 in) 2016– 295 hp (220 kW; 299 PS) 260 lb⋅ft (353 N⋅m)
Applications[edit]

• 2016-present Jeep Grand Cherokee
• 2016-present Dodge Durango
• 2016-present Chrysler Pacifica
• 2018-present Jeep Wrangler JL

https://www.pentastars.com/engines/PUG.php
It has revised heads, new cam phasing, two-level valve lift, and friction reduction, but not direct injection — at least, not yet.

Torque was increased by over 15% at engine speeds below 3,000 rpm for better drivability and less shifting; gas mileage increased by over 6%. On the Grand Cherokee, horsepower rose from 290 to 295, as well.

The revised engine uses two-speed variable valve lift; this reduces “pumping work” at low speeds, for a fuel economy gain of up to 2.7%, without sacrificing top-end power. A new torque-driven cam phasing valve timing system cuts oil demand, and increases its range from 50° to 70°, cutting knock during hot starts and increasing the ability to use the stop-start system. The valve timing system was also recalibrated to take advantage of the new intake manifold.

According to Chrysler, “Passive accelerator application is met with measured throttle response; hard inputs trigger aggressive starts.”

The upgraded Pentastar (PUG) has cooled exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) to eliminate knocks and increase efficiency by cutting pumping losses further. A new intake manifold with longer runners enabled the torque boost, and the compression ratio was boosted from 10.2:1 to 11.3:1. The heads include high-tumble intake ports and shrouded combustion chambers. New fuel injectors have eight holes for better atomization.

As predicted, various measures were also taken to reduce internal friction. These include using HG-R1 on the timing drive guide-faces (the new Pentastar is the first production engine to use this low-friction material), new valve springs, low-tension piston rings, and piston pins with a diamond-like carbon coating.

New 100-millijoule high-energy ignition coils are used with platinum spark plugs.

Redesigned components reduce overall engine weight, despite 13 pounds of added content, with the lightest Pentastar coming in at 326 lb (vs the original at 330 lb). Weight was cut partly by using a “thin-wall strategy” to reduce the thickness of some die-cast components. Windage-tray weight was slashed by 19% and front-cover weight was cut by 5%. Two-piece oil pans were eliminated, with the exception of Trail Rated vehicles. The main bearings and crankshaft pins were trimmed, cutting six pounds and reducing friction.

I would have shortened this response but the forum software seems to be having a problem with editing the length of the quote.

It seems to me that you came onto this thread with both barrels loaded for bear and got the wrong impression of what I was saying... Your comment appeared to have said that you had the facts and now that we had those facts, we can go from there. All I wanted was facts and sources.

I am still waiting for direct information regarding the difference in the Wrangler engines and what was changed.
We cannot go by the presumption that the engine in the Wrangler is the same as that in the Grand Cherokee or Ram or anything else.

As I have stated in other threads, I will wait for TFL or some other seemingling honest reviews to see if this engine is truly up to the task of pulling a high profile trailer of 7k# up the side of a mountain before I drop anymore money.
If the truck does perform to reasonable expectations given the factory tow rating, I am a buyer. If it does not, then I am not.
I’ve owned a number of Jeeps over the years and currently own two. Personally I have never had any bad luck or issues with them save a spun rod bearing in our 86 that had a GM 2.8 v6 in it. Once I rebuilt that engine, it was perfect.

Thanks for your time...

 

[Vegas_Sirk]

I don’t think it was a lemon - it was a pretty good from a quality perspective. For me the two biggest reasons were the weak engine and the constant fight with the Jeep on the Interstate to keep the dang thing straight down the road. After driving 2 hours out to do a hike, then hiking for 3 or 4 hours - climbing up and down some mountain - I was not happy getting back down to the parking lot realizing I was going to have to fight the Jeep all the way home - it was just too tiring to drive - it was all over the road. Maybe the longer wheelbase of the Gladiator will help. (Does it have a longer wheel base than the JLUR?). Those were the 2 reasons for me trading it in after 7 months and 10K miles. I tried to make it work. Just was not the vehicle I needed.

BTW - the steering was tight on my Jeep, I know there are problems with shake and vagueness - mine did not have that - if you turned the wheel the Jeep moved, but the Jeep was just unable to track down the road. My GMC and Chevy pickups just go straight down the road, I really don’t have to “keep it” going straight. Much nicer to drive.

Anyway that’s my opinion, for what it’s worth.

My JKU is the same way in the mountains and is exhausting on long drives. I live in Idaho so I'm doing day and weekend trips to the central mountains, eastern Idaho/western WY, Bend OR, Portland OR, and various areas of Southern WA. I also did a trip from Boise to Mammoth CA, and then on the way back went through Lake Tahoe, so I have a LOT of experience in the mountains with a Jeep and can 100% agree with you that they crawl over the overpasses, and also from a handling perspective are not confidence inspiring at all.

I personally would never buy the V6 again. Yes I know the 8 speed helps a lot, but I know it will still not be enough as I feel like my JKU needs at least a 50HP/TQ increase across the board to be decent.

With that said I'm in the same boat at the OP. I want the width of the Gladiator, but I want the power and handling of the Raptor. If pricing comes out that a Diesel Rubicon is close to Raptor pricing I'll be buying a Raptor. I know the Gladiator has better load capacity from an Overlanding standpoint and I'll have more trail access but if both are the same price I'm Ok with changing out the leaf springs on the Raptor and giving up some trail access as the power for daily driving and comfort increase on those 3-6 hour trips from point A to B will be worth it. The only way that will change is if for some shocking reason the Gladiator is a LOT more comfortable then the JL. So thats why I'm sitting on the sidelines to see how all this plays out.

 

[Oilburner]

My JKU is (was) the same way in the mountains and is (was) exhausting on long drives. ... 100% agree with you that they crawl over the overpasses, and also from a handling perspective are not confidence inspiring at all.

I personally would never buy the V6 again. Yes I know the 8 speed helps a lot, but I know it will still not be enough as I feel like my JKU needs at least a 50HP/TQ increase across the board to be decent.

... I'm sitting on the sidelines [until the diesel comes out] to see how all this plays out.

I'm with you on these points - although there are days I wonder if a supercharger might have been the ticket (albeit an Expensive one!)
http://www.fourwheeler.com/news/427...rangler-with-edelbrocks-e-force-supercharger/

 

[homerun]

I would have shortened this response but the forum software seems to be having a problem with editing the length of the quote.

It seems to me that you came onto this thread with both barrels loaded for bear and got the wrong impression of what I was saying... Your comment appeared to have said that you had the facts and now that we had those facts, we can go from there. All I wanted was facts and sources.

I am still waiting for direct information regarding the difference in the Wrangler engines and what was changed.
We cannot go by the presumption that the engine in the Wrangler is the same as that in the Grand Cherokee or Ram or anything else.

As I have stated in other threads, I will wait for TFL or some other seemingling honest reviews to see if this engine is truly up to the task of pulling a high profile trailer of 7k# up the side of a mountain before I drop anymore money.
If the truck does perform to reasonable expectations given the factory tow rating, I am a buyer. If it does not, then I am not.
I’ve owned a number of Jeeps over the years and currently own two. Personally I have never had any bad luck or issues with them save a spun rod bearing in our 86 that had a GM 2.8 v6 in it. Once I rebuilt that engine, it was perfect.

Thanks for your time...

I don't care if you get the new JT or not. I hope you get a vehicle you are happy with and is adequate for your towing needs. All I am saying the 3.6L was changed and updated from the JK. Either way as I stated I don't believe the changes were significant and probably won't make much of a difference pulling a 7k trailer up a mountain pass.

Here is another article on the changes. http://australiancar.reviews/2016_Pentastar_V6.php
I hear you saying you think that just because they used an updated version in the GC doesn't mean it is what they used in the JL. Other than the purple highlight in my last post and the difference in engine oil used, yet another way you can tell is to look at compression ratios. The JK was 10.2:1 and now if you look at the JL spec sheet the compression ratio is 11.3:1 indicating it is the updated version of the 3.6.

Bottom line they are not the same engine. Admittedly the differences are technical and hard to find. Most media articles simply state updated engine as the examples below:

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/jk-vs-jl-wrangler
"Along with an updated version of the classic Pentastar V6 that has been a mainstay for the JK Wrangler since its introduction in 2012"........"Even though the Pentastar is competing with all the new engines available, there have been improvements made that make the 3.6L engine even better."

https://www.kendalldodgechryslerjee...wrangler-jl-engines-diesel-etorque-pentastar/
"Returning to the Wrangler lineup is the 3.6-liter Pentastar V6 engine, but it has been upgraded for the new Wrangler JL."

 

[lrtexasman]

The JT will have the new Pentastar motor. They are not going to manufacture an old motor to put into it. I would also add to get to the 7600 lbs its going to require 410 gears, so you should factor that into your previous driving experience comparisons. Personally, I would not tow over 90% of the max tow rating up any mountain on a regular basis. I'd definitely move to a half ton truck or an Expedition or Tahoe. Even the GM twins with a diesel struggle. TFL has some good comparisions on Ike Gauntlet tests for various vehicles. All the mid-size trucks turn very high RPMs and struggle to maintain highway speed on the steep inclines. I just dont have reasonable expectation for a non turbo V6 to be able to tow over 7k up a mountain at highway speeds. I'd say anything over 4k and it's going to work really hard.

 

[Vegas_Sirk]

I'm with you on these points - although there are days I wonder if a supercharger might have been the ticket (albeit an Expensive one!)
http://www.fourwheeler.com/news/427...rangler-with-edelbrocks-e-force-supercharger/

I thought about it, but honestly its more problems. As someone who use to modify cars a lot, now that I'm older I stay away from Engine mods as I don't want to deal with the problems that come along with them on top of the added cost and the facty your warranty goes away. If would be great if FCA offered a factory Supercharger for the V6 through MOPAR as that might be worth it then.

 

[RegalZ]

I don't care if you get the new JT or not. I hope you get a vehicle you are happy with and is adequate for your towing needs. All I am saying the 3.6L was changed and updated from the JK. Either way as I stated I don't believe the changes were significant and probably won't make much of a difference pulling a 7k trailer up a mountain pass.

Here is another article on the changes. http://australiancar.reviews/2016_Pentastar_V6.php
I hear you saying you think that just because they used an updated version in the GC doesn't mean it is what they used in the JL. Other than the purple highlight in my last post and the difference in engine oil used, yet another way you can tell is to look at compression ratios. The JK was 10.2:1 and now if you look at the JL spec sheet the compression ratio is 11.3:1 indicating it is the updated version of the 3.6.

Bottom line they are not the same engine. Admittedly the differences are technical and hard to find. Most media articles simply state updated engine as the examples below:

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/jk-vs-jl-wrangler
"Along with an updated version of the classic Pentastar V6 that has been a mainstay for the JK Wrangler since its introduction in 2012"........"Even though the Pentastar is competing with all the new engines available, there have been improvements made that make the 3.6L engine even better."

https://www.kendalldodgechryslerjee...wrangler-jl-engines-diesel-etorque-pentastar/
"Returning to the Wrangler lineup is the 3.6-liter Pentastar V6 engine, but it has been upgraded for the new Wrangler JL."

Being that I drive a ‘15 JKU, and a ‘19 JLU, I feel uniquely able to say that the two are not even remotely similar. The 3.6L in the ‘19 JLU is built and or geared in such a way as to be a completely different motor. That being said, the ecoboost in my ‘17 Raptor is far and away more fun to drive in any situation as long as you don’t have to worry about stuffing those hips into a tight trail or garage.

 

[steffen707]

Being that I drive a ‘15 JKU, and a ‘19 JLU, I feel uniquely able to say that the two are not even remotely similar. The 3.6L in the ‘19 JLU is built and or geared in such a way as to be a completely different motor. That being said, the ecoboost in my ‘17 Raptor is far and away more fun to drive in any situation as long as you don’t have to worry about stuffing those hips into a tight trail or garage.

you have a JKU JLU and Raptor? jeally

 

[RegalZ]

you have a JKU JLU and Raptor? jeally

And a JL. Yes, I’ve been unusually fortunate. Regardless of my good fortune, I believe the OP can benefit from my unique perspective

 

[steffen707]

And a JL. Yes, I’ve been unusually fortunate. Regardless of my good fortune, I believe the OP can benefit from my unique perspective

absolutely the OP could benefit.

Dang, and a JL. Got any photos with all the rides together?

 

[RegalZ]

absolutely the OP could benefit.

Dang, and a JL. Got any photos with all the rides together?

No, the JLU and Raptor are in CO and the JKU and JL are in FL. GF drives the JKU and it’s being traded in for a new lifted mojito JLU next month. I’m not in love with the capacity of the JL and difficulty of entry for cargo, but if it makes it through the year that will make JL, JLU, JLU and JT. That’s a whole lot of J’s

 

[steffen707]

No, the JLU and Raptor are in CO and the JKU and JL are in FL. GF drives the JKU and it’s being traded in for a new lifted mojito JLU next month. I’m not in love with the capacity of the JL and difficulty of entry for cargo, but if it makes it through the year that will make JL, JLU, JLU and JT. That’s a whole lot of J’s

Can we be friends? My name starts with a J, lol

You selling the Raptor then for the JT?

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