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just_another_guy

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You have no way of knowing that. What we do know is that one product was specifically designed with this particular transmission in mind. The other is a compromise designed specifically to be close enough for no less than a dozen other fluids that themselves are incompatible with this transmission. That makes the Amsoil inferior in most modern transmissions.

Regardless of the outcome here, Amsoil is a company from the good ol' days running a universal fluid model. That's fine for oil and older transmissions, not fine for modern transmissions. If the transmission is marginal spec and the fluid is marginal spec, those two lines crossing ends up like OP. Maybe factory fluid would have saved it and maybe it was doomed, but we'll never know because they didn't help things when they added a product that was not correct for the transmission.
There's plenty of "what ifs" floating around at this point, but the fact that the transmission was whining and full of metal is pretty damning.
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LostWoods

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There's plenty of "what ifs" floating around at this point, but the fact that the transmission was whining and full of metal is pretty damning.
I can say that as a former tech it's really not. I have seen some shit come down in a pan and I've seen that same transmission go another 100k on multiple occasions. Copper and iron are normal contaminants because those are the wear components and those wear components have a logarithmic wear curve. Glycol is a normal contaminant because of residues that can remain after manufacturing.

Blackstone Labs exists to make money and people don't buy results from a company that doesn't show anything to worry about. They don't have factory tolerances and insider information so they should not be considered an expert.
 

just_another_guy

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I can say that as a former tech it's really not. I have seen some shit come down in a pan and I've seen that same transmission go another 100k on multiple occasions. Copper and iron are normal contaminants because those are the wear components and those wear components have a logarithmic wear curve. Glycol is a normal contaminant because of residues that can remain after manufacturing.

Blackstone Labs exists to make money and people don't buy results from a company that doesn't show anything to worry about. They don't have factory tolerances and insider information so they should not be considered an expert.
Have you ever used Blackstone? They have never tried to sell me anything or showed me anything to worry about. People who buy an oil analysis generally know what they are looking for, so falsifying data or misleading customers on the reports would not go well for a lab.
 

ShadowsPapa

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You guys keep talking ZF but isn't the 850RE a Chrysler product? The design started out a ZF design but the Chrysler tweaked and adjusted it to their specs?

SO please call the thing a 850RE.

With that being said it doesn't matter what ZF service docs say or state because it's not their trans.

Once Chrysler buys a design and adjusts it, then the liability for that design is wholly Chryslers and as such you need to follow Chrysler service advice to be compliant with all written liabilities Chrysler is bound to by warranty paperwork.

Talk of ZF just confuses the issue and has no bearing legally speaking.
It's still a ZF transmission.
The specs were changed mostly to fit FCA's existing equipment and ability to machine such parts. Functionally it's the same, it uses the same ZF clutches and so on.
Chrysler licensed the ability to build. Any mods or changes have to go to/through ZF. They can't change anything without communicating the change. Licensing doesn't give Chrysler free reign.

This is a piece written by a guy who apparently has some inside info into the transmissions themselves -

The transmission is a ZF design; when made by Chrysler, it has changes to match Chrysler equipment factory equipment and methods. The unit is also used by Porsche, BMW, and other high-end car makers. It is designated 8HP45 or 8HP90 when made by ZF; the Chrysler version of 8HP45 is called 845RE.
Some differences include the 845RE having extra friction plates and a larger pan for some versions.


According to Mike Kirk, Chrysler's director of axle, driveline, and manual transmissions, there were two main reasons for Chrysler's changes to the ZF automatics.

Kokomo was already set up with its own tooling and robotics, which are different from those used by ZF. Some changes to the transmission were made so they could use Chrysler's equipment and methods.

Chrysler also needed to make many more transmissions than ZF; choices that make sense for 50,000 transmissions a year may not make sense for 200,000 per year.

Mr. Kirk said that the partnership with ZF had been mutually productive; while Chrysler owns the intellectual property of any changes they make to the transmissions, they keep ZF informed. Chrysler can patent any of their changes and methods, including the software and controls, and is motivated to improve the transmissions and production methods to stay balanced with ZF.

Standards for both manufacturers are high, and the two companies use the same end-of-line test centers, driven by the same software.
 

LostWoods

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Have you ever used Blackstone? They have never tried to sell me anything or showed me anything to worry about. People who buy an oil analysis generally know what they are looking for, so falsifying data or misleading customers on the reports would not go well for a lab.
They sell tests and they sell aggregated data to manufacturers. If nothing is wrong nobody bats an eye, but if someone gets an analysis sheet with CRITICAL in bold red letters like OP did, they shout it from the rooftops and others think they need to get their fluid tested too. Fear has always been the ultimate marketing tool and it makes people like OP react irrationally.
 

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ShadowsPapa

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I can say that as a former tech it's really not. I have seen some shit come down in a pan and I've seen that same transmission go another 100k on multiple occasions. Copper and iron are normal contaminants because those are the wear components and those wear components have a logarithmic wear curve.
Wish I had pics of some of the transmission pans I've dropped down - all the sparkle stuff.
Copper is a wear item- a layer in a lot of the bushings.
One has to gather experience with each to determine - is this pretty normal or is this excessive as each uses different bushing and bearing materials.
Usually the silvery sparkles aren't iron but the softer wear layer of the bushings and bearings.
Some iron used to be normal because of the sharp unfinished edges of the clutch pack drums and the pressure plate - that back and forth could knock off some flecks.
There was almost always a small pile of gray material in the middle that was a normal build-up depending on the miles on the unit.
Then there were times you could see reddish colored material - not really tiny pieces, but larger than the head of a pin. Clutch or band material.
One had to use all of the information to make an informed decision - what looked really bad to some might not be all that bad - depending.
It's really not easy to look at just one thing, for example, look at the inside of the pan, and determine much without having more information.

I know sometimes I catch flak for saying I'm not touching the transmission - maybe never, maybe later down the road, but normally not any sooner than 70K or so because frankly, unless used hard, rode hard and put away wet, they'll go 100,000 miles with no issues - and that's going back a few decades. If the fluid looked decent, smelled decent, and the feel was right - why mess with it? Even going back into the 70s it was right in the books - normally not needed............. shouldn't these be better?
 

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They sell tests and they sell aggregated data to manufacturers. If nothing is wrong nobody bats an eye, but if someone gets an analysis sheet with CRITICAL in bold red letters like OP did, they shout it from the rooftops and others think they need to get their fluid tested too. Fear has always been the ultimate marketing tool and it makes people like OP react irrationally.
He got the oil analysis because of the transmission noise, the oil analysis showed heavy wear, and the transmission died shortly after. This all lines of pretty well. The OP also stated that he has a couple of oil reports from presumably healthy transmissions that don't show anywhere near the levels that his had. This also seems to support the theory that his transmission was hurt pretty badly before the fluid flush. No offense, but I'm also a former tech and your anecdotes just don't mean a whole lot.
 

ShadowsPapa

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The whine and other issues are what got me more than anything else. There should be no whine.
A scanner should have been put on and some tests run on the clutch packs - fill time, fill pressure and so on. (we used to have to remove plugs, screw in a pressure gauge and what a mess)
 
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They sell tests and they sell aggregated data to manufacturers. If nothing is wrong nobody bats an eye, but if someone gets an analysis sheet with CRITICAL in bold red letters like OP did, they shout it from the rooftops and others think they need to get their fluid tested too. Fear has always been the ultimate marketing tool and it makes people like OP react irrationally.
I did react, no doubt about it there. Irrationally?? No more than the next if the lab had bad news for you.

Just like a lab result from your Dr ordered blood test. Would you react irrational if results came back that you had stage 4 cancer? Is the lab just wanting to sell you drugs or do they just tell you what the diagnostic machines are saying?

Did I want to see this mess?
 

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He got the oil analysis because of the transmission noise, the oil analysis showed heavy wear, and the transmission died shortly after. This all lines of pretty well. The OP also stated that he has a couple of oil reports from presumably healthy transmissions that don't show anywhere near the levels that his had. This also seems to support the theory that his transmission was hurt pretty badly before the fluid flush. No offense, but I'm also a former tech and your anecdotes just don't mean a whole lot.
It died after he put fluid in the thing that isn't certified for the transmission. There's a whole lot of unknown here but the things we do know are that they used the wrong fluid and the transmission failed.

The "critical" lab results OP posted are here. 906 ppm iron, 662 ppm copper, and trace amounts of glycol which typically means we measured it but it was insignificant. That's what all this is about and for literal wear metals in every transmission, those numbers are a complete joke.
 

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It's still a ZF transmission.
The specs were changed mostly to fit FCA's existing equipment and ability to machine such parts. Functionally it's the same, it uses the same ZF clutches and so on.
Chrysler licensed the ability to build. Any mods or changes have to go to/through ZF. They can't change anything without communicating the change. Licensing doesn't give Chrysler free reign.

This is a piece written by a guy who apparently has some inside info into the transmissions themselves -

The transmission is a ZF design; when made by Chrysler, it has changes to match Chrysler equipment factory equipment and methods. The unit is also used by Porsche, BMW, and other high-end car makers. It is designated 8HP45 or 8HP90 when made by ZF; the Chrysler version of 8HP45 is called 845RE.
Some differences include the 845RE having extra friction plates and a larger pan for some versions.


According to Mike Kirk, Chrysler's director of axle, driveline, and manual transmissions, there were two main reasons for Chrysler's changes to the ZF automatics.

Kokomo was already set up with its own tooling and robotics, which are different from those used by ZF. Some changes to the transmission were made so they could use Chrysler's equipment and methods.

Chrysler also needed to make many more transmissions than ZF; choices that make sense for 50,000 transmissions a year may not make sense for 200,000 per year.

Mr. Kirk said that the partnership with ZF had been mutually productive; while Chrysler owns the intellectual property of any changes they make to the transmissions, they keep ZF informed. Chrysler can patent any of their changes and methods, including the software and controls, and is motivated to improve the transmissions and production methods to stay balanced with ZF.

Standards for both manufacturers are high, and the two companies use the same end-of-line test centers, driven by the same software.
Yes i have read the same thing and agree

So in your opinion who is on the hook for establishing legally binding documents that form the foundation of care for said transmission and who is on the hook if said transmission fails based on those technical documents?

One should use the same name that the legally responsible mfr uses for their product and use the tech docs supplied by the same mfr if they want to be on the legal straight and narrow.

Unfortunately the law doesn't see gray, they follow clear contractual paths back to parties who holds contractual responsibilities regardless of what a subcontractor may develop/state for the same/similar product under different mfr.

My whole point in this silly diatribe is to dispel the notion that if you do what ZF says for their version of the 850RE you are in compliance with Chrysler, which is not the case if it was put to a legal test.

Call it 850RE and follow what Chrysler says in other words.
 
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Maximus Gladius

Maximus Gladius

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It died after he put fluid in the thing that isn't certified for the transmission. There's a whole lot of unknown here but the things we do know are that they used the wrong fluid and the transmission failed.

The "critical" lab results OP posted are here. 906 ppm iron, 662 ppm copper, and trace amounts of glycol which typically means we measured it but it was insignificant. That's what all this is about and for literal wear metals in every transmission, those numbers are a complete joke.
If we asked how the glycol was measured I would tell you. It’s best to not assume. The lab performed a Glytech test. These are test strips that show the “presence” of glycol in the oil and strip will change colour indicating contamination. Measurement of how much is not done, just that there is.

This case lacks any and all investigative critical thinking. Just a whole lot of assumptions. AMSOIL didn’t make better or worse the damaging trend that was already going on from the start.
 

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I did react, no doubt about it there. Irrationally?? No more than the next if the lab had bad news for you.

Just like a lab result from your Dr ordered blood test. Would you react irrational if results came back that you had stage 4 cancer? Is the lab just wanting to sell you drugs or do they just tell you what the diagnostic machines are saying?

Did I want to see this mess?
Looking back......you should have done nothing, played dumb, and let it grenade. Doing the responsible, proactive thing is what bought you this trouble.

Should I decide to change my fluid, I will obviously buy the OE fluid from a source that can't be tracked to me and I won't note it anywhere.

Hard pill to swallow.
 

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For this very reason I use no oil but Pennzoil with the MS-6395 certification because if not they may try to void the warranty when it comes to not using recommended engine oil as well when a problem arises.
 

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This case lacks any and all investigative critical thinking. Just a whole lot of assumptions. AMSOIL didn’t make better or worse the damaging trend that was already going on from the start.
There's only four facts that matter:
  1. Your truck is warrantied against failure, not noises or anything else.
  2. You elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission
  3. The transmission failed after you elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission
  4. They voided your warranty because you elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission
Everything else here is completely irrelevant or hearsay and does not provide any evidence that contradicts these facts.
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