"Lifetime", Lifeguard 8-9 Speed ATF (Is this semi-synthetic oil good "forever"??) 24k kms.

[Maximus Gladius]

UPDATE!!

I could only wish that all of us who are experiencing early transmission failure would get an oil analysis done BEFORE anything is done.

I did 2 reports. First at 24k kms and second at 32k kms where it died.
-1. First shows glycol from the factory assembly and extreme abnormal numbers for copper, iron and sodium. Lab comment ALERT: change oil and filter.
-2. Complete flush done, Chrysler code compliant for 850RE transmission Amsoil Signature Series Fuel Efficient ATF installed.
-3. Second analysis report 8k later at first transmission ESS code P1B14-00 (PARK BY WIRE, UNINTENDED PARK POSITION) won’t come out of park mode, - report shows NO glycol present but again, extreme abnormal copper and iron. Sodium not highlighted. Lab comment ALERT: change oil and filter.
4. Chrysler VOIDS warranty and blames my use of AMSOIL in transmission then unilaterally voids my entire drivetrain warranty for choosing AMSOIL over MOPAR.
5. AMSOIL legal department now involved.
6. I’ve cited District Service Manager for malice and for contravening and violating my legal rights to use a lubricant that meets or exceeds manufacture recommended oils and for contravening Canada’s Consumer Protection Act and America’s Magnuson Moss Act.

That’s where she sits today.

UPDATE:
AMSOIL stepped in to enquire at FCA. They were on a fact finding mission to gather info. As I live in Canada, AMSOIL suggested I make a call to Consumer Protection and provided the contact info. What was I going after you might ask?? Unfair practice and being bullied by FCA Canada District Service Manager for Calgary. This tyrant took my transmission failure and use of “non Mopar lubricants” personally and crushed my warranty on the transmission. Was told AMSOIL destroyed it, the cooler and hoses (no investigation) then attacked me further by restricting the whole drivetrain that uses “non Mopar lubricants”. FCA confirmed my warranty was FLAGGED and repairs were on me. This also would include my having to replace my “coolant consuming engine” from the factory that consumes 10 ounces every 10k kms oil change period. Total cost about $30k for both items. I filed a strong complaint with FCA “customer care” and they said “end of the road, no appealing the DSM decision on my warranty. Nothing they could do.”

Consumer Protection said there was nothing they could do and pointed me down the path to our Provincial Arbitrator group (AMVIC). AMVIC said they don’t do manufacture defects or warranty issues and pointed me down the path to Canada’s Federal Arbitration group (CAMVAP). CAMVAP said “Chrysler ISN’T a participant in the program so there is nothing they can do, go back to AMVIC and tell them”. WTF??! Like I want to chase my tail.

Auto manufacturers actually have a choice to opt out of arbitration, transparency and fairness??!

In short, there is NO consumer protection for a customer that has a Chrysler product in Canada. I then demanded a letter from the dealership of my warranty restriction and reasons. They said they aren’t writing it and sent the note to the DSM to write it. I never got it and FCA never had one filed. AMSOIL was ready to move on this and needed it. Dealership reached out to me and asked for me to detail exactly what I want from the DSM. I attached AMSOIL’s warranty sheets for Dealerships and the AMSOIL Data Sheet showing Chrysler MOPAR compliance codes for the transmission and drivetrain requesting the DSM muster up all the common sense he can find and reconsider. Failing that I want my letter and failing that I wanted his contact info for legal service. Canada does have the Common Law legal system here and this power infused tyrant was about to experience it.

The next day, my warranty is reinstated and we are back to square one with my putting the truck in to actually start diagnosing the transmission code AND supporting the investigation will be both oil analysis’s proving the transmission is in grave malfunction FROM THE FACTORY BEFORE AMSOIL WENT IN.

What do I want from all this? …respect.

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[FshnRdnJpnAB]

UPDATE:
AMSOIL stepped in to enquire at FCA. They were on a fact finding mission to gather info. As I live in Canada, AMSOIL suggested I make a call to Consumer Protection and provided the contact info. What was I going after you might ask?? Unfair practice and being bullied by FCA Canada District Service Manager for Calgary. This tyrant took my transmission failure and use of “non Mopar lubricants” personally and crushed my warranty on the transmission. Was told AMSOIL destroyed it, the cooler and hoses (no investigation) then attacked me further by restricting the whole drivetrain that uses “non Mopar lubricants”. FCA confirmed my warranty was FLAGGED and repairs were on me. This also would include my having to replace my “coolant consuming engine” from the factory that consumes 10 ounces every 10k kms oil change period. Total cost about $30k for both items. I filed a strong complaint with FCA “customer care” and they said “end of the road, no appealing the DSM decision on my warranty. Nothing they could do.”

Consumer Protection said there was nothing they could do and pointed me down the path to our Provincial Arbitrator group (AMVIC). AMVIC said they don’t do manufacture defects or warranty issues and pointed me down the path to Canada’s Federal Arbitration group (CAMVAP). CAMVAP said “Chrysler ISN’T a participant in the program so there is nothing they can do, go back to AMVIC and tell them”. WTF??! Like I want to chase my tail.

Auto manufacturers actually have a choice to opt out of arbitration, transparency and fairness??!

In short, there is NO consumer protection for a customer that has a Chrysler product in Canada. I then demanded a letter from the dealership of my warranty restriction and reasons. They said they aren’t writing it and sent the note to the DSM to write it. I never got it and FCA never had one filed. AMSOIL was ready to move on this and needed it. Dealership reached out to me and asked for me to detail exactly what I want from the DSM. I attached AMSOIL’s warranty sheets for Dealerships and the AMSOIL Data Sheet showing Chrysler MOPAR compliance codes for the transmission and drivetrain requesting the DSM muster up all the common sense he can find and reconsider. Failing that I want my letter and failing that I wanted his contact info for legal service. Canada does have the Common Law legal system here and this power infused tyrant was about to experience it.

The next day, my warranty is reinstated and we are back to square one with my putting the truck in to actually start diagnosing the transmission code AND the supporting the investigation will be both oil analysis’s proving the transmission is in grave malfunction FROM THE FACTORY BEFORE AMSOIL WENT IN.

What an ordeal! It sounds like your tenacity is succeeding but it sucks that you had to fight so hard to be treated fairly. I hope this nightmare is eventually resolved favorably.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I base this off my experiences as a mechanic who repaired, rebuilt, automatic and manual transmissions, engines, and so on. Items worked on cover about 1910 to 1994. (I have not personally delved into transmissions past the mid 1990s)
Copper in the fluid - what it may mean:
Transmissions have historically had many types of bearings and thrust surfaces from torrington to roller/ball to thrust washers to bushings and other types
Thrust washers, bushings, "bearings" often are made of a steel backing, a layer of copper or copper alloy, and then sometimes lead and a layer of babbit.
Seeing copper - excessive copper - in a fluid analysis may indicate that either the babbit layer is going or gone and there is wear taking place on the copper layer itself, or if there was never any babbit over the copper, there is excessive wear of the copper surface. The copper is softer and is supposed to protect the steel surface. If the steel is smooth, no problem. If the steel is less than mirror smooth, it wears or cuts into the copper.

Again, no personal experience inside any ZF made or designed transmission made by anyone else including Jeep, but if there are any areas like the earlier TorqueFlite transmissions, there may be copper wear surfaces such as the front pump where the torque converter hub engages with the internal pump gear to drive the pump. The torque converter hub goes through the front seal in the pump, through a bushing and into the pump. In the past if there was a problem with that smooth, hard torque converter hub it would cut that bushing and of course circulate the babbit and copper through the transmission fluid (and the front seal would eventually leak)

For reference, this is the sort of bushing/bearing surface I refer to - there are also sometimes thrust washers or surfaces made the same way: steel backing or shell, layer of copper or copper alloy and there may or may not be a layer of babbit over that.

So when I see excessive copper in an analysis, I think of excessive wear or damage to things like this ->

Even brass and bronze have copper - brass being a copper and zinc alloy and bronze being a copper and tin alloy. Bronze is used frequently in bushings, think of the early years of starters like the Ford 4.5" direct drive starter, the pilot "bearing" or bushing in the rear of crankshafts of manual transmission cars and trucks. The tin in bronze is a soft metal that is sort of lubricating, good for wear surfaces.

But when the reports said "copper" I instantly thought "excessive wear" and pictured the bushings used in automatic transmissions............ copper.
(Of courser assuming the ZF designed transmissions used and/or made by Jeep have these things like the BMW kit I pictured above, never having one of the Jeep transmissions apart myself.)

 

[Maximus Gladius]

UPDATE: 32800 kms, transmission is dead.

For 3 weeks the truck sat in the garage because tranny wouldn’t come out of PARK, then a member here showed me a video how to use the manual PARK release strap and wouldn’t you know it, I could drive again! What a wonderful experience… until today I’m off to work when all of a sudden RPM’s shot up and I had no forward push. I coasted to a perfect spot and the truck was towed to the dealership.

Safe guess on the ATF oil analysis plus 800 more kms puts the numbers like this: 1000ppm copper and 1100ppm iron. Those are the death numbers if anyone is looking at their own and want to compare.

Proper numbers should be at about 40 ppm or less. The video on page 4 show great numbers of 150 ish at 50k miles!!

 

[Maximus Gladius]

UPDATE: 32800 kms, transmission is dead.

For 3 weeks the truck sat in the garage because tranny wouldn’t come out of PARK, then a member here showed me a video how to use the manual PARK release strap and wouldn’t you know it, I could drive again! What a wonderful experience… until yesterday… I’m off to work when all of a sudden RPM’s shot up and I had no forward push. I coasted to a perfect spot and the truck was towed to the dealership.

The metals count on the ATF oil analysis plus 800 more kms puts the numbers like this: 1000ppm copper and 1100ppm iron, if not more. Those are the death numbers if anyone is looking at their own and want to compare.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

UPDATE:
Got pics back from the dealership of the transmission pan when they pulled it to diagnose. What a catastrophic MESS.

As of right now I know a few things about the tranny and status of my warranty.

(1) My warranty shows no restrictions or flags. However, dealership, DSM nor FCA will provide a letter or written reason for their decision to not replace the transmission under warranty and placing cost on me for repairs/replacement. (Approximately $13k cad)

(2) The service manager told me verbally the valve body holds pressure.
(3) FCA customer care said my warranty is CLEAR of restrictions.
(4) I haven’t received the invoice for the diagnostic yet, maybe today as FCA holds me liable for it. Discussion between all parties communicating their thoughts about the transmission and analysis I provided showing glycol and bearing wear damage are “proprietary” and i am not allowed to see the tech/Techline/DSM discussion, their opinions and reasons for damage they feel or decisions made. I’m told I need a court order to see them.
(5) FCA customer care informs me that reason to hold me liable for transmission replacement “should be on the diagnostic invoice” but could not guarantee it, but my warranty is good!
(6) I’m waiting to be told to come pay the invoice and tow the truck home. (Invoice needs to be clear what the fault is).

I’m in discussions with AMSOIL.

 

[Mac]

Wow, at this point I would just buy a used transmission and change it myself, they appear to be readily available on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-2021-...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Wow, at this point I would just buy a used transmission and change it myself, they appear to be readily available on eBay.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-2021-...p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Right at the start of all this mess, service manager gave me this # as the transmission. 68157995AA. The number on the eBay is different. Great price though and if I go that route and have no choice, I’d need the “Mandate Freedom” trucks to move over a little so transport can get through.

I smell a rat when I’m told I have to get a court order to see FCA discussion that affects me. We’ll see what happens here.

 

[Mr._Bill]

UPDATE:
Got pics back from the dealership of the transmission pan when they pulled it to diagnose. What a catastrophic MESS.

As of right now I know a few things about the tranny and status of my warranty.

(1) My warranty shows no restrictions or flags. However, dealership, DSM nor FCA will provide a letter or written reason for their decision to not replace the transmission under warranty and placing cost on me for repairs/replacement. (Approximately $13k cad)

(2) The service manager told me verbally the valve body holds pressure.
(3) FCA customer care said my warranty is CLEAR of restrictions.
(4) I haven’t received the invoice for the diagnostic yet, maybe today as FCA holds me liable for it. Discussion between all parties communicating their thoughts about the transmission and analysis I provided showing glycol and bearing wear damage are “proprietary” and i am not allowed to see the tech/Techline/DSM discussion, their opinions and reasons for damage they feel or decisions made. I’m told I need a court order to see them.
(5) FCA customer care informs me that reason to hold me liable for transmission replacement “should be on the diagnostic invoice” but could not guarantee it, but my warranty is good!
(6) I’m waiting to be told to come pay the invoice and tow the truck home. (Invoice needs to be clear what the fault is).

I’m in discussions with AMSOIL.

This is based on what I remember reading the thread. I have not gone back over it.

There are no flags on your warranty, because it is still valid. That does not mean they won't deny warranty coverage for this repair. To see their internal discussions would require you to sue them, which would provide the court mandate to share information. The oil analysis showing glycol would only be helpful to you if the transmission failed with the original fluid in it. You having the fluid changed at an independent shop gives them an out. They will also likely point to the Owners Manual stating that no fluid changes are necessary for the life of the transmission.

Maybe you can pursue Amsoil for an assist in paying for the replacement transmission, since yours failed with their fluid in it.

 

[DAVECS1]

If the 392 transmission fits, that would be a killer upgrade

 

[Maximus Gladius]

This is based on what I remember reading the thread. I have not gone back over it.

There are no flags on your warranty, because it is still valid. That does not mean they won't deny warranty coverage for this repair. To see their internal discussions would require you to sue them, which would provide the court mandate to share information. The oil analysis showing glycol would only be helpful to you if the transmission failed with the original fluid in it. You having the fluid changed at an independent shop gives them an out. They will also likely point to the Owners Manual stating that no fluid changes are necessary for the life of the transmission.

Maybe you can pursue Amsoil for an assist in paying for the replacement transmission, since yours failed with their fluid in it.

Their hidden messages can only be based on tantrums, knee jerk reactions, emotions, biases and feelings. That first month feeling the weight of Chrysler’s hammer following the tranny code and failure, no investigation was done. Heck, my 3 year old granddaughter acts out in the same manner, give her a hammer and I wouldn’t see a difference.

We’re all adults here. I’ve got thick skin and can actually walk into the dealership and have a civil conversation. I’ve invited their best to come and discuss the transmission with my best in the industry, even invited Mr Tantrum himself to educate us all…no show.

The service manager that initially dealt with my first concerns at 24k actually commended me for doing analysis work and wanting to flush the system and upgrade to a superior oil. He said “better done sooner than later” but did warn me what could happen and then said Chrysler was not going to change the oil as per the lab ALERT and said cost was on me to do. Each oil change at the dealer -$1700cad X 2. I’d need two because they don’t flush, they don’t have the equipment.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

You may all be shocked to learn the DSM had a plan and set a trap for the dealership to take the fall for the transmission that I reacted to and threw back at the DSM.

 

[ilovebikes99]

You may all be shocked to learn the DSM had a plan and set a trap for the dealership to take the fall for the transmission that I reacted to and threw back at the DSM.

So he wanted to help you?

 

[Maximus Gladius]

No. He’s a dirty player and the dealership refused his deal

 

[Mr._Bill]

Their hidden messages can only be based on tantrums, knee jerk reactions, emotions, biases and feelings. That first month feeling the weight of Chrysler’s hammer following the tranny code and failure, no investigation was done. Heck, my 3 year old granddaughter acts out in the same manner, give her a hammer and I wouldn’t see a difference.

We’re all adults here. I’ve got thick skin and can actually walk into the dealership and have a civil conversation. I’ve invited their best to come and discuss the transmission with my best in the industry, even invited Mr Tantrum himself to educate us all…no show.

The service manager that initially dealt with my first concerns at 24k actually commended me for doing analysis work and wanting to flush the system and upgrade to a superior oil. He said “better done sooner than later” but did warn me what could happen and then said Chrysler was not going to change the oil as per the lab ALERT and said cost was on me to do. Each oil change at the dealer -$1700cad X 2. I’d need two because they don’t flush, they don’t have the equipment.

So, instead of letting the transmission fail with the factory fluid in it, which would have given you a warranty replacement, you went the replace fluid on your own route, after being warned about what would likely happen?

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