Pentastar power increase

[sharpsicle]

Got em

Have you read the feedback from other 3.6 owners where these are actually hurting their performance? Others have also proved that they only post 5 star reviews and anything under that gets tossed to make their products look better than they are. Others report that RIPP refuses to even acknowledge them when the coils underperform or go bad after 3k miles.

Here's an example:
https://www.jeepgarage.org/threads/anyone-try-the-new-ripp-coil-packs.197034/
More here:
https://www.challengertalk.com/threads/ngk-vs-ripp-coil-pack-results.702653/

I mean, it's RIPP, they're probably one of the worst performance companies out there. Doesn't surprise me they'd try to fleece people for "advanced" coils that they really don't need. I think the suggestion by @Lunentucker was again in jest.

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[Flyin6]

Have you read the feedback from other 3.6 owners where these are actually hurting their performance? Others have also proved that they only post 5 star reviews and anything under that gets tossed to make their products look better than they are. Others report that RIPP refuses to even acknowledge them when the coils underperform or go bad after 3k miles.

Here's an example:
https://www.jeepgarage.org/threads/anyone-try-the-new-ripp-coil-packs.197034/

I mean, it's RIPP, they're probably one of the worst performance companies out there. Doesn't surprise me they'd try to fleece people for advanced coils that they really don't need.

Nope, didn't know that
Here's what I can say through direct observation.
Power improvement: Not really seeing anything, but no dyno tests and seat of the pants at 5,000+ pounds is just not going to happen.
I have noticed a curious stumble, reminiscent of a misfire from time to time.
Further read somewhere where the MSD units were the way to go.
Read that 6+ months after installing the RIpp coils

There may be a juncture to correct this
Sometime around mid-winter, I plan to pull the whole intake off and send it out for porting along with a bigger TB. I could and may swap coils then.

 

[Zachanadandy]

Modifying engines is mostly dumb. The world is full of people driving around with expensive bits of trash bolted to their powertrain convinced that they’re making more power or MPGs. Little metal windmills, oiled filters, cat-back exhaust systems, etc. Then there’s a group that digs deeper and runs radical cams, tunings, deletes, etc. This will work to a point, but at the sacrifice of drivability, longevity, reliability, frequently mileage, money and sometimes legality. If it’s a demolition derby or autocross track rat, go for it. But not a road going thing you paid good money for.

The only way to really get more power out of an engine is to increase the movement of air and fuel through the system via displacement or charging. Everything else is small potatoes, or an outright scam.

Yes Maserati can take the 3.6 and tune it to be a higher performing engine. Nissan uses the same basic VQ engine in tons of vehicles with different tunings. But there’s a reason they don’t tune the Pathfinders version like an Infiniti coupe. They also use a lot of different components. Frequently, and critically, the bearings are often different in truck engines than in the sports car versions of the same engine. You don’t want a Maserati 3.6 in a Jeep. Personally I wouldn’t want one in a Maserati.

Tuning shops aren’t doing a lot to the 3.6 because no one wants a blown out 3.6 so there’s no ROI. If you ask your average tuning shop about Pentastar tuning, after giving you a disgusted look, they tell you engine swap. It’s just not a good ROI, yours or theirs.

If you want “power” for towing and off road, then you really want torque which means gearing. If you’re running bigger than stock tires, regear. Anyone who modifies their engine outside of cheap plug and play systems, like a Banks while running big tires, and they haven’t yet regeared back to the stock ratio, is an idiot. That being said, even without rehearing, I’ve yet to run out of low gearing off road on any Jeep (I’ve never not owned a Rubicon, with a lower low range).

If however you want to burn tires up the street, maybe not own a Jeep. Otherwise it’s supercharging, turbo charging or a swap. There’s an old saying “put an LS in it”. In this case, “put an LT in it”. You can usually find a LT or LS out of a wreck for a lot less than a stupid Hemi crate engine. They make kits to integrate the LT into the Mopar ecosystem.

P.s., I can chirp my 37” tires all day long from a stop, cause the truck to squat while driving around town with liberal use of the the vertical pedal and generally hoon it around if I want to albeit mildly, with no aftermarket tuning or even a throttle controller on stock 3.73 gearing. I also still get high 20s on the interstate. It only cost me $4k from Jeep. It’s called the Ecodiesel.

This is categorically false. Every major tuner and supercharger manufacturer in the business has 3.6L products on the market. The GPEC5 is the hold up. Not the market, not the demand, and certainly not the ability to make significant improvements over the factory tune. There are tens of thousands of 3.6L on the street in chargers, Jeeps, rams, etc making more power to the wheels than a stock 5.7L HEMI thanks to edelbrock, ripp, Magnuson, procharger, etc and likely 50 times that many making 30+ hp over stock thanks to any of the tuners on the market. Obviously there are scam products but to pretend that you can't make great gains via a reputable tune is absurd. Even 20hp to the wheels is a 10% gain.

 

[sharpsicle]

I need to start a quick company to offer +20HP wire loom, +10HP gas pedals,, and +5HP throttle body bolts. I'd make a quick few grand right here!

 

[@californiajeeping]

Man, don't tempt me!
If I could convert mine to diesel, I would.
I even started a thread here toying with the idea.
Perhaps someone will come along with a good diesel swap into the truck and I can bite off on that. Love diesels, and in hindsight am wanting to kick myself in the buttocks, but, that ship already sailed. I chose the lifeboat and here I am...

Trade it in. Trust me. Best thing I ever did.

 

[Flyin6]

I need to start a quick company to offer +20HP wire loom, +10HP gas pedals,, and +5HP throttle body bolts. I'd make a quick few grand right here!

You're forgetting the drag-reducing hood decal good for + 2 mpg

 

[Flyin6]

Trade it in. Trust me. Best thing I ever did.

Kant do it man...Kant drive meself to do it... ;-)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

https://rippmods.com/products/ripp-high-performance-coil-packs

LOL - for those who bite into anything marketing but not based on seeing decades of giga-volt coils put in only to find - nothing. There's a reason for that.

Not sure how much MSD would help on these with the technology already there, but coil packs, meh, pass, hard pass.
Once the plug fires, the voltage stops building. So if it takes 25,000 volts to fire the plug, a coil that kicks out 100,000 volts doesn't matter - it stops building at the point the spark jumps. There can be more energy for a longer duration spark - but that is more for old engines that rely on dwell time and fire cylinders from a single coil.

I'd love to see the ignition patterns on a stock 3.6 vs one with after-market coils.
Most of the time, "high performance" coils are a help when the engines have other issues.
A sound engine, physically solid and fit, good fuel control usually doesn't gain with different coils.

 

[Flyin6]

LOL - for those who bite into anything marketing but not based on seeing decades of giga-volt coils put in only to find - nothing. There's a reason for that.

Guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!
sad face emoji

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

This is categorically false. Every major tuner and supercharger manufacturer in the business has 3.6L products on the market. The GPEC5 is the hold up. Not the market, not the demand, and certainly not the ability to make significant improvements over the factory tune. There are tens of thousands of 3.6L on the street in chargers, Jeeps, rams, etc making more power to the wheels than a stock 5.7L HEMI thanks to edelbrock, ripp, Magnuson, procharger, etc and likely 50 times that many making 30+ hp over stock thanks to any of the tuners on the market. Obviously there are scam products but to pretend that you can't make great gains via a reputable tune is absurd. Even 20hp to the wheels is a 10% gain.

You didn’t read my post at all. I said:

“The only way to really get more power out of an engine is to increase the movement of air and fuel through the system via displacement or charging”

“Charging”, as in supercharging or turbocharging, I.e, moving more air. You listed a bunch of companies making supercharger systems. I don’t see how that refutes my post in anyway, but only affirms it.

I also never said you can’t make more power with tuning. What I said that it’s a compromise of one or more categories, e.g., mileage, reliability, longevity (of other parts, like cats, not just the engine), drivability, etc. Most aftermarket performance products, like plug and play tuners, cat-backs, and intake mods are limited or outright scams.

Tuning, without changing volumetric efficiency, or displacement (false or real), is tricking the computer into allowing it to violate its fuel mixture. Long term, this isn’t a good practice if a reliable vehicle is your goal. I can go out to my truck right now and gain 30whp just by unbolting emissions shit. I wouldn’t recommend that. I can get a tuner that dumps fuel into the engine and I can roll coal of the street slowing ruining my engine, turbo and exhaust system. Yes, that will make more power at the expense of engine and its surrounding components. The reason those companies you listed make superchargers is because that (air) plus tuning (fuel) is the full solution that, in theory, doesn’t ruin your valves, exhaust system, etc. Otherwise they wouldn’t make them if you could get it all from a chip. The OP didn’t indicate he wanted a track rat with cranked up spark advance, rough idle, and black shit coming out of the tail pipe.

So like I said, it’s back to displacement, either by bore and stroke, cylinder count or forced induction for real and reliable gains in power.

As for my comment on ROI, 20whp isn’t much. I got the impression the OP wanted a lot more than that. There are plenty of systems for other platforms that gain you 80-100 whp. I’m not saying real Pentastar tuning doesn’t exist. But it mostly seems to consist of bolting on forced induction. For major gains it’s my impression that most folks move away from this platform to one with much more reliable potential.

I can tell you that I’d much rather have a V8 putting out 450hp at a relatively stock configuration than a Pentastar putting out the 400hp via some extreme modification. That’s why most people who really want a jump in power opt for a swap. It’s much less trouble.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!
sad face emoji

Not picking on you at all - just that I cut my teeth on use of a scope for diagnostics. I've compared many plugs, wires and coils on older vehicles, and the same principals apply to modern, just more difficult to gather the information due to the modern ignition systems.
I see over and over people talk of "I put this on my car and it starts better, idles better......... on and on......." and what's happening is that their engine needs work, if they actually fixed the fuel system, or the physical condition, they'd have the same results.

For those wondering about MSD, if anyone is at all - Multiple Spark Discharge is where the name came from. Instead of one long, fading spark, it supplies more of a zap-zap-zap in very quick succession in case the first one missed the fuel molecules. A standard spark jumps until the energy in the coil is dissipated and then fades and cuts off.

Primary pattern.........

The secondary pattern should show a bit of a nose at the end of the spark interval, slight jump up before dropping off into oscillations

If the spark duration pattern ramps up as the plug fires, generally means an excessively lean cylinder.

A "hotter coil" will generally not be much if any different in the pattern except perhaps in duration, but it won't be higher voltage or a hotter spark. Likely more residual energy dissipated through oscillations after the spark.

From a coil-on-plug diagnostic document -

You can tell a lot about the fuel, physical condition of the engine, and more, by comparing the pattern of each cylinder.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

-Concur
The price out of the gate for their engines in my opinion is prohibitively expensive. Add to that the ever-increasing labor costs and man, it's just not all that attainable...swapping engines, that is.

Honestly, there’s no real good option. The 392 is insultingly expensive considering the price of the same upgrade in a Ram. The crate engine swaps from AMW, et al, are crazy expensive. I almost pulled the trigger on a AEV Hemi conversion back in 04’ but it was Dave Harriton, the owner of AEV that sort of talked me out of it based on what I wanted to do.

I honestly think the best (cheapest) option is to get an LT swap kit and an LT out of a wrecked Chevy and DIY it if you want a big power upgrade, plus V8 driveabilty. If you want a decent bump, then a forced induction system for the 3.6 for around $8-10k.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

There’s also a wee little Cummins crate diesel. That’s my unserious backup plan if the eco-diesel bites the dust. But I wouldn’t convert from gas to diesel. That sounds like a nightmare. You’d be better off scouring the Earth for a totaled eco-diesel And taking all its parts.

 

[Wolf Island Diver]

Have you read the feedback from other 3.6 owners where these are actually hurting their performance? Others have also proved that they only post 5 star reviews and anything under that gets tossed to make their products look better than they are. Others report that RIPP refuses to even acknowledge them when the coils underperform or go bad after 3k miles.

Here's an example:
https://www.jeepgarage.org/threads/anyone-try-the-new-ripp-coil-packs.197034/
More here:
https://www.challengertalk.com/threads/ngk-vs-ripp-coil-pack-results.702653/

I mean, it's RIPP, they're probably one of the worst performance companies out there. Doesn't surprise me they'd try to fleece people for "advanced" coils that they really don't need. I think the suggestion by @Lunentucker was again in jest.

Coil packs making more HP, ? “my truck needs more electricity!!” I rest my case about the aftermarket. Yeah, RIPP makes crapp. At least the folks here on this forum aren’t dealing with the 2013 Gen 2 Pentafail. I didn’t have the luxury of thinking about power upgrades. I was too busy taking my JK to the shop repeatedly to keep it running at all. Although maybe a nice supercharger would have finally blown all the remaining casting sand out of the block.

Of course I’m too busy trying to get a replacement fuel pump to think about deleting my ecodiesel. Fool me once Jeep, shame on you….fool me twice, buy a Tacoma.

 

[Zachanadandy]

You didn’t read my post at all. I said:

“The only way to really get more power out of an engine is to increase the movement of air and fuel through the system via displacement or charging”

“Charging”, as in supercharging or turbocharging, I.e, moving more air. You listed a bunch of companies making supercharger systems. I don’t see how that refutes my post in anyway, but only affirms it.

I also never said you can’t make more power with tuning. What I said that it’s a compromise of one or more categories, e.g., mileage, reliability, longevity (of other parts, like cats, not just the engine), drivability, etc. Most aftermarket performance products, like plug and play tuners, cat-backs, and intake mods are limited or outright scams.

Tuning, without changing volumetric efficiency, or displacement (false or real), is tricking the computer into allowing it to violate its fuel mixture. Long term, this isn’t a good practice if a reliable vehicle is your goal. I can go out to my truck right now and gain 30whp just by unbolting emissions shit. I wouldn’t recommend that. I can get a tuner that dumps fuel into the engine and I can roll coal of the street slowing ruining my engine, turbo and exhaust system. Yes, that will make more power at the expense of engine and its surrounding components. The reason those companies you listed make superchargers is because that (air) plus tuning (fuel) is the full solution that, in theory, doesn’t ruin your valves, exhaust system, etc. Otherwise they wouldn’t make them if you could get it all from a chip. The OP didn’t indicate he wanted a track rat with cranked up spark advance, rough idle, and black shit coming out of the tail pipe.

So like I said, it’s back to displacement, either by bore and stroke, cylinder count or forced induction for real and reliable gains in power.

As for my comment on ROI, 20whp isn’t much. I got the impression the OP wanted a lot more than that. There are plenty of systems for other platforms that gain you 80-100 whp. I’m not saying real Pentastar tuning doesn’t exist. But it mostly seems to consist of bolting on forced induction. For major gains it’s my impression that most folks move away from this platform to one with much more reliable potential.

I can tell you that I’d much rather have a V8 putting out 450hp at a relatively stock configuration than a Pentastar putting out the 400hp via some extreme modification. That’s why most people who really want a jump in power opt for a swap. It’s much less trouble.

20hp isn't much when you're starting with 400, but the pentastar isn't. As far as longevity, my ram had a tune on it for 100k of its 120k miles when I sold it. Not a single hiccup, no cat failure, or any of the other things you mentioned. Even starting with 395 crank hp that 5.7L was noticeably more powerful from a 35ish hp gain according to the tune. That's less than 10%. The livernoise tune is consistently adding 40hp to the 3.6L according to their dyno as well as several independent dyno sheets I've seen on the charger/Challenger forums. That's 15-20% more power. That's significant, cheap, and proven reliable from many who have tens of thousands of tuned miles. Is it going to make the gladiator feel like a HEMI? Not at all. But at about 3% of the cost of the hemi swap you'd be foolish to expect that. I'd be willing to bet the tune would put the acceleration back to stock on the ops modified gladiator on 37s as it did on our 2019 JLUR as confirmed by multiple tazer 0-60 runs. If there is any effect on reliability it's minimal in my personal experience.

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