Strike has begun

[Hootbro]

And the corporate execs are greedy pigs.

And the legislators are nowhere to be found probably because the Republicans are getting kickbacks from the execs and the Dems are getting kickbacks from the unions, but this is a problem that should have a legislated answer.

You ok with the govt. stepping in and regulating what you make also?

I think we have seen that play out before. Everybody is a capitalist with their own money and a socialist with other peoples money.

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[Pescatoral Pursuit]

You ok with the govt. stepping in and regulating what you make also?

I think we have seen that play out before. Everybody is a capitalist with their own money and a socialist with other peoples money.

No we haven't seen this play out before unless you are referring to events which precipitated the Bolshevik and French Revolutions, or Black Sunday.
Wealthy Middle Class is a relatively new socio-economic strata.

The facts are if you do not properly regulate capitalism it plays out like a large game of Monopoly as we are now seeing on the macro level.

https://dlab.berkeley.edu/news/expl...ot realize that,in countries around the world.

"Pareto in the Real World

The Pareto distribution has major implications in our society. Consider its original use case, describing the distribution of wealth across individuals in a society. The vast majority of the world’s citizens are clustered at a low level of wealth, while a small percentage of the population controls the vast majority of all wealth. Policymakers may not realize that wealth is distributed according to a Pareto distribution rather than a normal distribution, and this gap in understanding could lead to suboptimal policy decisions in countries around the world."

I was snapped out of my Pollyanna naiveté by a wise engineer in the late 90s back when I thought free market capitalism worked for everybody who was willing to go to work and earn. The problem with that idea is that the most successful in society are also the smartest and greediest in society and will not stop until they have taken everything they can for themselves, only being constrained by time and space and force of law.
Hawaii is living example at the moment: the ultra wealthy unscathed by the fires, instead of helping those in need the most, they are taking advantage of them in seeking to buy at bargain basement price what little bit those who've been devastated have left.

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

 

[Hootbro]

No we haven't seen this play out before unless you are referring to events which precipitated the Bolshevik and French Revolutions, or Black Sunday.
Wealthy Middle Class is a relatively new socio-economic strata.

The facts are if you do not properly regulate capitalism it plays out like a large game of Monopoly as we are now seeing on the macro level.

https://dlab.berkeley.edu/news/explaining-80-20-rule-pareto-distribution#:~:text=Policymakers may not realize that,in countries around the world.

"Pareto in the Real World

The Pareto distribution has major implications in our society. Consider its original use case, describing the distribution of wealth across individuals in a society. The vast majority of the world’s citizens are clustered at a low level of wealth, while a small percentage of the population controls the vast majority of all wealth. Policymakers may not realize that wealth is distributed according to a Pareto distribution rather than a normal distribution, and this gap in understanding could lead to suboptimal policy decisions in countries around the world."

I was snapped out of my Pollyanna naiveté by a wise engineer in the late 90s back when I thought free market capitalism worked for everybody who was willing to go to work and earn. The problem with that idea is that the most successful in society are also the smartest and greediest in society and will not stop until they have taken everything they can for themselves, only being constrained by time and space and force of law.
Hawaii is a perfect living example at the moment: the ultra wealthy unscathed by the fires, instead of helping those in need the most, they are taking advantage of them in seeking to buy at bargain basement price what little bit those who've been devastated have left.

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

You did not answer the question if you were ok with the Govt. regulating your wages.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

You did not answer the question if you were ok with the Govt. regulating your wages.

The problem with being a sheep duped into the perspective of a wolf is two-fold:

A. You don't know that you're duped.
B. You eventually become dinner at the time of the wolves' choosing.

 

[chesafreak]

l

Facts

You would think this is a positive for the employees. I am not privy to the auto industry directly but I know alot of companies offer stock as payment/retirement. Decided to open the googler and they even are getting profit sharing at GM.. GM autoworkers eligible for up to $10,250 in profit-sharing for 2021 (detroitnews.com)

 

[BourbonRunner]

You would think this is a positive for the employees. I am not privy to the auto industry directly but I know alot of companies offer stock as payment/retirement. Decided to open the googler and they even are getting profit sharing at GM.. GM autoworkers eligible for up to $10,250 in profit-sharing for 2021 (detroitnews.com)

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

 

[The Duck of Earl]

I'll dip my toes in here, not to debate all of the merits of pro corporation vs employee, but everyone is missing what will likely be the outcome of all of this and that this fight is likely a bit short-sighted. If the UAW gets anywhere close to even half of their demands, the big 3 will just pivot to less work being handled in house and thus less jobs for the union workers. This is already playing out at John Deere as an effect of their last round of contract negotiations as an example.

Automation and advanced robotics is already lowering the need for human labor, and expensive labor costs will only accelerate this. The suppliers and contract manufacturers will be winners in all this as well, particularly in the short term, as they will not be bound by the same contracts / labor costs, and the big 3 will outsource more of the components and likely more of the assembly.

So maybe some more tenured employees win with greater pay today while they are closer to retirement anyway, but the newer hires will face increasingly stronger headwinds for availability of work under the new supposedly better contracts. And at some point, the value of a particular task should be capped, from an economic/business standpoint awarding annual increases across the board even to those already at the top of the pay scale for their particular role makes very little sense.

 

[Hootbro]

The problem with being a sheep duped into the perspective of a wolf is two-fold:

A. You don't know that you're duped.
B. You eventually become dinner at the time of the wolves' choosing.

It was a simple question, not 4D chess.

 

[Pescatoral Pursuit]

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

Is this what makes you feel good about overpaying for a product? Or that the workers may be underpaid, whether based on COLI, or exponential exec pay disparity?

Whether or not they own stock in the company, it's pretty fair to say that the workers are also heavily invested.

not to debate all of the merits of pro corporation vs employee

That's not really the debate playing out.

If there were a bunch of hungry executives struggling to make the notes on their several mansions, while the greedy unions were making unreasonable demands, then perhaps.

 

[ErylFlynn]

Is this what makes you feel good about overpaying for a product? Or that the workers may be underpaid, whether based on COLI, or exponential exec pay disparity?

Whether or not they own stock in the company, it's pretty fair to say that the workers are also heavily invested.


That's not really the debate playing out.

If there were a bunch of hungry executives struggling to make the notes on their several mansions, while the greedy unions were making unreasonable demands, then perhaps.

To comment on the topic of government regulations, I am always hesitant. I don't trust our government, they are bought and paid by many of these large companies. Your comments about Capitalism being like Monopoly is not too far off, but the problem is we don't have true and proper regulation due to them being bought and sold.

Unions have the same problem, longer and bigger they get the more people find ways to line their pockets and make it about the leaders and not the people it was made to protect and help. New unions with new formats might need to be made to combat this. Ones where the leaders are actual workers, and the company is reimbursed by the union for time they spent doing union work as an example.

But to appear off topic, but it really is the root of the issue and many others is culture. What made Japanese cars back in the 80s-90s so darn good? It came from their culture of work. Same thing for us as a rising nation. We heal our culture, a lot of issues will come along or be easier to fix.

 

[Alpine Warthog]

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

Not attacking you Chuck, however Marx was nothing if not a man full of jealousy and anger. He called the sky blue and then said it's color should be given to everything. Somehow more idiots started calling him a visionary. My eyes can't roll hard enough with anything associated with Marx.

But on your point: yes, completely unregulated capitalism can allow monopolies and the complete abuse of workers. These companies during the time of the writing of "The Jungle" and other type works were using Gestapo style and other illegal tactics to keep people in line. Already illegal and overlooked by corrupt politicians and others in places of power.
However, we as workers also have to accept some responsibility for taking these jobs and accepting the pay and working conditions as well. Sorry, I'm not roofing the Socialist HQ with a 12/12 pitch 60 feet in the air for ANY amount of money. Not doing it, my sense of self preservation will not allow it. We don't have slave labor, and we don't have indentured servants either. During Covid, I left one town and went to another for various reasons but ultimately I went to were the work was. Not only did I change location, I changed industries and then did it again two years later. I went from being military police, to retail manager to security/account manager to IT professional in just 4 years time. If you don't like your job, leave it. Create your own company or find another. The conditions of the workers and workplace is what we employees allow. Maybe this is something just unique to me or maybe I've got just enough FU in my blood to stand up to conditions I won't accept but I learned a while ago my success is from my own work and the grace of God. Just like in ships, the boat captain has to contend with the possibility of a mutiny. Its a balance of doing what has to be done to preserve the ship (or in this case, the company) and keeping your sailors happy. If they don't do that, the sailors won't show back up at the end of the next port call (at worst) they make the captain walk the plank. SO, like I said before, unions HAD their place, but now they are controlled by the same sharks that run some of these companies. So employees have a choice to make. In my area, Cummins employees make an AVERAGE of $88K! The median salary for my area? $37K. They aren't hurting. But honestly, I kinda hope the union get it's wish. It'll drive more outsourcing to little towns like mine and others in Appalachia further decentralizing production and not only improving my area but also weakening the unions further. More robots in the big, union factory, and more small-town USA, non-union, people jobs. It's a lot harder to unionize a little 100 person company.

 

[KC_H]

No we haven't seen this play out before unless you are referring to events which precipitated the Bolshevik and French Revolutions, or Black Sunday.
Wealthy Middle Class is a relatively new socio-economic strata.

The facts are if you do not properly regulate capitalism it plays out like a large game of Monopoly as we are now seeing on the macro level.

https://dlab.berkeley.edu/news/explaining-80-20-rule-pareto-distribution#:~:text=Policymakers may not realize that,in countries around the world.

"Pareto in the Real World

The Pareto distribution has major implications in our society. Consider its original use case, describing the distribution of wealth across individuals in a society. The vast majority of the world’s citizens are clustered at a low level of wealth, while a small percentage of the population controls the vast majority of all wealth. Policymakers may not realize that wealth is distributed according to a Pareto distribution rather than a normal distribution, and this gap in understanding could lead to suboptimal policy decisions in countries around the world."

I was snapped out of my Pollyanna naiveté by a wise engineer in the late 90s back when I thought free market capitalism worked for everybody who was willing to go to work and earn. The problem with that idea is that the most successful in society are also the smartest and greediest in society and will not stop until they have taken everything they can for themselves, only being constrained by time and space and force of law.
Hawaii is living example at the moment: the ultra wealthy unscathed by the fires, instead of helping those in need the most, they are taking advantage of them in seeking to buy at bargain basement price what little bit those who've been devastated have left.

Marx had the right diagnosis but the wrong prescription.
Unregulated or poorly regulated capitalism will have the same end result as communism, it will just take longer to get there, but when it does, the tyrants will be that much richer.

Laissez-faire Capitalism works great for the ultra wealthy, for everyone else not so much... Remember the saying: Capitalism defeated communism and now it has democracy on the ropes...

The top 10% of households by wealth as a group, held 77% of total household wealth.

The bottom 50% of households by wealth as a group, held only 1% of total household wealth.

Guess who makes the rules.

 

[KC_H]

Exactly.

The elephant in the room the talking points conveniently forget is who the primary beneficiaries of the profits are: Stock holders.

And among those stock holders are pensions, retirement funds, 401k's, both in the private and public sectors. Millions of normal everyday Americans count on the dividends from their investments in Ford, GM, and other companies. Instead, it relies on a pathetically immature version of class warfare to gin up the masses.

I'm not just talking the mega funds like State Street, Vanguard, or Blackrock. (even though anyone can invest in those, too). Rather, I'm referring to the state retirement plans for teachers and other public employees in California, Kentucky, Virginia, Tennessee, Ohio, and Wisconsin amongst others are all GM shareholders directly. Many hold positions in Ford, Stellantis, and other big companies.

People do not understand investment and capital markets and the UAW and its allies capitalize on that lack of education.

Shareholders as the primary beneficiary of profits is an unfortunate concept, it is associated with the shift (globally) to Laissez-faire Capitalism, oligarchies, and even fascism.

The term stakeholders is a much more accurate description of how the profits of a public company should be utilized. A Stakeholders has a vested interest in a company and can include:

• Shareholders (are only one type of stakeholder, they can easily sell their stock and are no longer a stakeholder)
• Employees
• Customers
• Suppliers
• Communities / Governments (The public services that benefit and protect a company)
• It is a myth that public corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. There have been a number of legal rulings, including by the Supreme Court, brought on by other stakeholders, clearly stating that U.S. companies do not have to maximize shareholder value.

Public companies do not operate in a shareholder value vacuum.

And yes, I do understand investments and capital markets...

 

[smlobx]

Why don’t the UAW workers just quit and find a better job???

Oh wait, they can’t! They are making way more than the average American worker…

 

[Alpine Warthog]

Shareholders as the primary beneficiary of profits is an unfortunate concept, it is associated with the shift (globally) to Laissez-faire Capitalism, oligarchies, and even fascism.

The term stakeholders is a much more accurate description of how the profits of a public company should be utilized. A Stakeholders has a vested interest in a company and can include:

• Shareholders (are only one type of stakeholder, they can easily sell their stock and are no longer a stakeholder)
• Employees
• Customers
• Suppliers
• Communities / Governments (The public services that benefit and protect a company)
• It is a myth that public corporations are legally required to maximize shareholder value. There have been a number of legal rulings, including by the Supreme Court, brought on by other stakeholders, clearly stating that U.S. companies do not have to maximize shareholder value.

Public companies do not operate in a shareholder value vacuum.

And yes, I do understand investments and capital markets...

It's true that companies don't have to in a vacuum but ignoring the shareholder isn't something they do for a long time. Short term decisions, sure. But that financial earnings report and forecast isn't something they take lightly either.

So exactly what is keeping the regular person from owning stocks and being a shareholder? Our education system? I'd start there. Why don't we teach economics in Highschool? Home Ec? Hell, it's easier than ever to own stocks and you don't even have to own a full share at all. You can buy in increments. The only companies you can't get a share of the profits from are privately owned ones. Two kids in my own household are using Greenlight and slowly accumulating stocks. My Dad (union carpenter, who HATES unions) has been investing here are there for decades. He's only got a HS diploma and training in Carpentry. He's retired now and went to school to be a massage therapist. Point is, these people don't live in a caste society and aren't forced to stay working for the UAW or the big 3..

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