Whats is your opinion the jeeps engine stop start system?

[TTU03]

I wouldn't consider anyone to be an idiot just because they followed the recommendation from a youtube video and did some research on their own. But when you watch one video and base everything you do on that one video, you're asking for trouble. Be informed and know what you are doing. There is no telling how many fuse arrays were blown or how many good batteries have been replaced just because someone on youtube said delete the Aux without giving full instruction or pointing out safety precautions or testing procedures.
How many people came here thinking they could delete the aux and ess would no longer function? They learn and move on. Some will argue and say ESS is no good and the system sucks. I would sort of agree with that. So instead of keeping my head in the sand, I decided to learn a little more about it. I realized my issue had more to do with my driving habbits. Once I started monitoring my battery condition, I found that ESS does exactly as intended.

I feel like an idiot when I consider the amount of money spent on add ons to this truck and caravan is nice enough to send me an email each month letting me know how much less my truck is worth.

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[TTU03]

You know I thought politics and religion were the ultimate divider of people. Turns out ess fits right in there.

 

[RHINO79]

You know I thought politics and religion were the ultimate divider of people. Turns out ess fits right in there.

Same thing, just like what team Aaron Rodgers is going to

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I need to order some of those patches! My son would love to pass them out at Tesla. BTW, he is being honored today for being one of the top 10 technicians at Tesla.

A good friend works at a Mercedes shop in the Germantown area - DC.
He's a top tech there and gets crazy great lease deals on Mercedes vehicles.
But being the clown he can be - he drove one of those new Mercedes to our AMC race event a while back, ran it down the track a couple of times, then hid the time slips in various places in the car saying "imagine someone finding these when I turn the car back in - they'll freak out".

Absolutely, it takes a lot longer than you think to wear the film off and cause any damage. We are talking about a couple seconds here.

It takes longer for the oil to fill the filter and circulate after every oil change, are you going to stop changing the oil?

Exactly. Facts, science and engineering vs. "but....but.... oil pressure!"
Imagine cars and trucks that sit for days or weeks. No real problem.
And again, these start with the pump at maximum displacement right off the bat, pressure is there before the gauge can catch up.

Oil is needed to have the film to protect from friction.

• Would you start your engine with no oil in the pan and let it run for even a couple seconds?
• Do you shift to D/first and step on the accelerator within a second of starting a warm engine, say after having made a quick stop for fuel?
• For non-ESS vehicles, do you manually shut off the engine when stopped at a traffic light or stop sign?
• Would you have paid an extra $500 for ESS as an option?

1 - in a sense you do the same thing every time you do an oil change. It takes time to fill the filter again. Drain the oil, change the filter, let it run out for a while. What have you done? Started an engine that runs 2 or 3 seconds with no oil pressure. Granted, these build pressure extremely fast with the crankshaft drive oil pump, unlike the pumps driven by the cam (distributor driven running half of crankshaft speed) in older V8s.
And when cars like mine sit for several weeks, even 3 or 4 months, they are relying on that oil film until oil fills the galleries and supplies new oil film to the moving parts. Pressure does not lubricate, film does. I could quote you some of that from an SAE engineer, but then I've done that many times before and no one cared. Didn't matter, minds were made up.
Further - the bearings in these engines are very very different from the pre-2015 3.6 Pentastar engines. Different materials and coatings on them. They aren't like the bearings of 20 years ago.

2 - yeah, no problem because there is oil there already. No problem. The film protects and it doesn't go away!
How many have you taken apart and not had oil run all over from the galleries in the heads and block?

3. I have in the past when it runs into a long period of time, yes. But those are vehicles not made for frequent starting - old style starters, plain bearings instead of ball or needle bearings like the ESS starters, it's harder on a non-ESS vehicle to shut it down and restart it. The ESS engines are designed for it, as are the starters. They are stout permanent magnet starters, true bearings, they do not use carbon brushes on copper commutators like other starters, so they'll last and last and last.
These have starters engineered for it, the PCM tracks things, and the ESS restart takes a fraction of the time and is a fraction of the load on the parts that a non-ESS start is.
My wife and I both noticed a difference in the mpg when the ESS isn't working for any reason.

it takes a lot longer than you think to wear the film off and cause any damage. We are talking about a couple seconds here.

Scroll the cluster to the oil pressure screen. Go to a stop light and let ESS work. Watch as the engine cranks maybe 1 or 2 revolutions tops to restart (unlike a cold start, these hardly spin at all) - note how fast the oil pressure zips up to the 70s, then settles back to the normal 30 psi. Keep in mind, the electronic gauge system - sending unit - is slower to respond than a mechanical gauge. So it's actually a little faster than your screen's response. You get oil as quick as it's firing on its own.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

A manual transmission is actually the best use case for ESS.

I want to say BMW started doing it around 2009 or so in their EU market manual transmission models. Their automatics came a few years later, because it's a little more difficult to discern what the driver is about to do next with some high probability (you're measuring brake pedal travel/force, vehicle acceleration, etc., to make a guess at when to shut the engine down).

I think it's overall a fine idea if you've reinforced the starter and engine internals to handle the slightly increased stop/start duty.

Starter temperature is monitored as well, according to the documents.

 

[MT1]

Absolutely, it takes a lot longer than you think to wear the film off and cause any damage. We are talking about a couple seconds here.

It takes longer for the oil to fill the filter and circulate after every oil change, are you going to stop changing the oil?

ESS has the engine stopped for more than a couple seconds.

Would you pay even the small amount of $500 for ESS as an option?

 

[MT1]

A good friend works at a Mercedes shop in the Germantown area - DC.
He's a top tech there and gets crazy great lease deals on Mercedes vehicles.
But being the clown he can be - he drove one of those new Mercedes to our AMC race event a while back, ran it down the track a couple of times, then hid the time slips in various places in the car saying "imagine someone finding these when I turn the car back in - they'll freak out".



Exactly. Facts, science and engineering vs. "but....but.... oil pressure!"
Imagine cars and trucks that sit for days or weeks. No real problem.
And again, these start with the pump at maximum displacement right off the bat, pressure is there before the gauge can catch up.




1 - in a sense you do the same thing every time you do an oil change. It takes time to fill the filter again. Drain the oil, change the filter, let it run out for a while. What have you done? Started an engine that runs 2 or 3 seconds with no oil pressure. Granted, these build pressure extremely fast with the crankshaft drive oil pump, unlike the pumps driven by the cam (distributor driven running half of crankshaft speed) in older V8s.
And when cars like mine sit for several weeks, even 3 or 4 months, they are relying on that oil film until oil fills the galleries and supplies new oil film to the moving parts. Pressure does not lubricate, film does. I could quote you some of that from an SAE engineer, but then I've done that many times before and no one cared. Didn't matter, minds were made up.
Further - the bearings in these engines are very very different from the pre-2015 3.6 Pentastar engines. Different materials and coatings on them. They aren't like the bearings of 20 years ago.

2 - yeah, no problem because there is oil there already. No problem. The film protects and it doesn't go away!
How many have you taken apart and not had oil run all over from the galleries in the heads and block?

3. I have in the past when it runs into a long period of time, yes. But those are vehicles not made for frequent starting - old style starters, plain bearings instead of ball or needle bearings like the ESS starters, it's harder on a non-ESS vehicle to shut it down and restart it. The ESS engines are designed for it, as are the starters. They are stout permanent magnet starters, true bearings, they do not use carbon brushes on copper commutators like other starters, so they'll last and last and last.
These have starters engineered for it, the PCM tracks things, and the ESS restart takes a fraction of the time and is a fraction of the load on the parts that a non-ESS start is.
My wife and I both noticed a difference in the mpg when the ESS isn't working for any reason.





Scroll the cluster to the oil pressure screen. Go to a stop light and let ESS work. Watch as the engine cranks maybe 1 or 2 revolutions tops to restart (unlike a cold start, these hardly spin at all) - note how fast the oil pressure zips up to the 70s, then settles back to the normal 30 psi. Keep in mind, the electronic gauge system - sending unit - is slower to respond than a mechanical gauge. So it's actually a little faster than your screen's response. You get oil as quick as it's firing on its own.

Would you buy ESS as an option?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Would you buy ESS as an option?

Probably. For multiple reasons - it absolutely saves us fuel, and - some areas have been passing laws related to idling at stops or while stopped. I have a large PDF that shows all of the regions - states, counties, cities and otherwise that have "idling laws". They are mostly applied to diesels for now - but - some are going after gas powered vehicles in recent times. So there will come a time when it will not be the EPA that says "we'll give you CAFE and emissions credits for this" it will be "you can't sell that car/truck here if it doesn't shut down at a stop". It's coming. It's pretty relaxed right now but there are laws on the books related to idle times.
It has caused us zero issues, it's a pretty wide-spread thing, not restricted to Jeeps at all, and it's a growing thing as well. I'm very used to it, it's not annoying, it saves us fuel.
There is one time I do press that button to disable it - driving through the Atlanta area and parts of Kentucky where traffic is absolutely stop and go - it would be off/on/off/on/off/on for an hour otherwise. So I do hit the button when traveling through some places due to the crazy stop and go traffic. Otherwise, I let it work, and have since our first Jeep with it back in 2016. We've had several ESS equipped Jeeps over the years - 9 years. Fine with it, used to it after 9 years.

 

[Chestnut]

The question was would you rely only on the film of oil to protect the metal.

What else is there? I don't have a fairy godmother in my engine putting magic dust on the metal parts.

Would you pay even the small amount of $500 for ESS as an option?

Someone has to answer you. Yes I would, having lived with ESS for 4 years I'd pay $500 for it. Especially considering how car companies work they would make the non-ess versionwith a crappier starter and even worse batteries.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

ESS has the engine stopped for more than a couple seconds.

He was talking about the time it takes for oil pressure to build and start "squirting parts" again. There's a nice oil film all over those parts for hours after shut down. 2 minutes is nothing at all. They are still very well oiled at a restart.
There's a lot of engine builders who put the engine in, get everything ready, and simply start it - no pump priming, no nothing. In fact, the books state "pack the oil pump with vasoline jelly" - not a single word about filling a filter or priming a pump. So for decades, millions of engines have been rebuilt, with only the assembly lube on the parts, no oil in the filter, unprimed systems, and they've been fine.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The question was would you rely only on the film of oil to protect the metal.

That's what really protects anyway - the oil film. Yes, all engines have since the beginning relied on that film. Well, I take that back, early stationary engines had grease cups, but I digress - engines since they stopped using grease and started using oil to lubricate bearings have relied on the oil film for protection. Yes, there's liquid oil in the bearings at the crankshaft and camshaft, but the pistons, cam lobes, followers, valve stems, and all other parts rely on that oil film. Oil pressure doesn't protect, the oil film does.
Think about the 1930s vehicles with splash lubrication, think about many other engines - oil film. A lot of oil stays put on the journals, held there by virtue of being between two parts. It doesn't just run out and dry up. What's there each time you start any engine? the oil film that remains from last time it ran. And with a short stop period like ESS there's a whole lot of oil that simply stays there.
What does the book say about checking oil? 5 minutes. Even then I could easily prove that you have more oil still in the heads, galleries and other areas that has not run back to the pan, so waiting 60 minutes you would likely see a higher level than waiting just 5 minutes, and these stop only for roughly 2 minutes or so. Film is what protects. not oil pressure.

 

[DiehardTory]

F'cking Sucks.. Just as this system does on every vehicle sold today. Waist of $ as the amount of fuel saved is minuscule vs cost on the vehicle; blame regulations on Corporate Fleet Fuel Economy.

 

[Labswine]

1 - in a sense you do the same thing every time you do an oil change. It takes time to fill the filter again. Drain the oil, change the filter, let it run out for a while. What have you done? Started an engine that runs 2 or 3 seconds with no oil pressure. Granted, these build pressure extremely fast with the crankshaft drive oil pump, unlike the pumps driven by the cam (distributor driven running half of crankshaft speed) in older V8s.

I learned this the hard way as a late teenager. I had a 1964 Buick Special with the 225 aluminum V-6, that I got to be my 'first' car. It needed some body work which I read how to do, and did, and had a road sign welded into the driver's floor pan so I wasn't 'Fred Flintstoning' it . I drove it for about 5,000 miles after I initially got it (this was 1980 and the car had only 63K on it).

So I decided it was time for an oil change. I read how to do it and followed the directions TO THE LETTER.

After that, I was going to a body shop to get an estimate for a re-paint. It was that 'Desert Sand' color and I wanted it to be black with a white roof (like the '63 my Dad had once).

Well, I started her up and took off. I got about 2 1/2 miles and was going down the road and began losing power on up a slight grade. Floored it and still nothing. Pulled off to the side of the road and as soon as I took my foot off the gas, the engine died. Tried to re-start and nothing.

Got it towed to the mechanic Dad had used for many years. One look, and he said the engine was completely seized. Asked me how that happened. I said I simply changed the oil and followed the book to the letter.

He asked me if I primed the oil pump, and I went "hunh?" He said that in cars built prior to 1965, the oil pump had to be primed by filling the new filter with oil before putting it in. Lesson learned.

Well, I did get 2 1/2 miles on an engine WITHOUT any oil circulation before it seized

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I learned this the hard way as a late teenager. I had a 1964 Buick Special with the 225 aluminum V-6, that I got to be my 'first' car. It needed some body work which I read how to do, and did, and had a road sign welded into the driver's floor pan so I wasn't 'Fred Flintstoning' it . I drove it for about 5,000 miles after I initially got it (this was 1980 and the car had only 63K on it).

So I decided it was time for an oil change. I read how to do it and followed the directions TO THE LETTER.

After that, I was going to a body shop to get an estimate for a re-paint. It was that 'Desert Sand' color and I wanted it to be black with a white roof (like the '63 my Dad had once).

Well, I started her up and took off. I got about 2 1/2 miles and was going down the road and began losing power on up a slight grade. Floored it and still nothing. Pulled off to the side of the road and as soon as I took my foot off the gas, the engine died. Tried to re-start and nothing.

Got it towed to the mechanic Dad had used for many years. One look, and he said the engine was completely seized. Asked me how that happened. I said I simply changed the oil and followed the book to the letter.

He asked me if I primed the oil pump, and I went "hunh?" He said that in cars built prior to 1965, the oil pump had to be primed by filling the new filter with oil before putting it in. Lesson learned.

Well, I did get 2 1/2 miles on an engine WITHOUT any oil circulation before it seized

I've worked on cars from the 1910s on up - never did prime anything or fill a filter after an oil change. Worked in a shop that had mostly older people with older cars as customers, never had a problem. You had a really odd one for sure.

 

[sharpsicle]

I’m not sure what the responses to this poll mean.

Favorable as in, I like it? Or favorable as in, it provides the benefit? Or favorable as in, it works as described?

What does favorable mean in here?

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