Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, DW, Death Wobble, Shimmy, Wander, Drift, Bump Steer

[Mad Mac]

Flashing the PCM?

Over on a JL forum people are talking about correcting
loose steering, wandering, drift etc
by having the dealer flash the Power Steering Control Module.
I do not understand how an electronic control module
would change steering response.

Has anyone heard of this for the JT?

Also, I still think the best place to start
after checking for loose steering components
is adjusting the steering gear box.
It does not cost anything if you do it yourself.

Or find a dealer or alignment place
that does not look at you with the same expression
a chicken has when you show it a card trick.

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[Mflowers11]

Time was my issue as well. Started up 3 weeks before my move from Texas to Massachusetts. Towed a U-Haul the whole way no issues.

My factory tie rod had some movement but my drag link moved a lot. Never really got a clear answer on if that was okay. New one doesn’t move at all.

I should’ve been more clear in my first post, but I’m not sure which replacement fixed the issue - the synergy tie rod or drag link. I don’t think the ATS stabilizer is masking at this point. I’ve hit the gnarliest of gnarly bumps at highway speeds and while towing. No wobble.

My bet was on the drag link for my issue but I really don’t know. If money isn’t an issue for you, then I’d go for the tie rod next. Shouldn’t cost much in labor. I can’t remember the proper toe numbers (maybe just a tad positive though?), but I think castor should be in the lower-mid +6s range.

Some folks I’m sure don’t agree with the “throw money at it” approach, but I like process of elimination. The way I look at it is if proper alignment, upgraded tie rod, ball joints, track bar, control arms, etc don’t fix it, then maybe solid front axle just ain’t meant to be for me lol.

And hey, if the last upgrade you do works, then you got a mighty fine handling rig after it all.

Yeah, love the Jeep and even thought about getting a second car for work. It would give me time to figure it out and turn the gladiator into my weekender earlier than I thought…but my wife will definitely think my midlife crisis has become worrisome. Lol

Flashing the PCM?

Over on a JL forum people are talking about correcting
loose steering, wandering, drift etc
by having the dealer flash the Power Steering Control Module.
I do not understand how an electronic control module
would change steering response.

Has anyone heard of this for the JT?

Also, I still think the best place to start
after checking for loose steering components
is adjusting the steering gear box.
It does not cost anything if you do it yourself.

Or find a dealer or alignment place
that does not look at you with the same expression
a chicken has when you show it a card trick.

Thought about tightening that up but a loose steering has never been an issue. 90% is Hwy driving and it’s been great. No drift and up till now 2 finger hwy driving. That’s where the Metalcloak sector shaft brace came in. Maybe I’m wrong but it sounds like that firms it up without screwing with the steering box gears?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Flashing the PCM?

Over on a JL forum people are talking about correcting
loose steering, wandering, drift etc
by having the dealer flash the Power Steering Control Module.
I do not understand how an electronic control module
would change steering response.

Has anyone heard of this for the JT?

Also, I still think the best place to start
after checking for loose steering components
is adjusting the steering gear box.
It does not cost anything if you do it yourself.

Or find a dealer or alignment place
that does not look at you with the same expression
a chicken has when you show it a card trick.

Can't correct shimmy or wobble or even take out play. All the electronics can do is control when the EHPS pump runs and the pressures put out. It has zero connection to the steering gear.

All a dealer can do as far as alignment is set toe and check things. The dealership can't change caster or camber without replacing parts. (and they aren't going to do that)
An alignment shop can set caster by replacing control arms with adjustable and/or geometry correcting brackets.
They can set camber with ball joint "shims" which involves a partial teardown to get them installed. (dealer isn't going to do that)

Thought maybe the RC spacer lift it came with was contributing so I replaced that with a Clayton leveling kit. (Added 2” - 2.5” to my High Altitude but was close to the same as it had always been with the spacer lift when I got it, shortened the upper control arms several times seeing if maybe castor had something to do with it, rotated stock HA tires & had them balanced…. Synergy drag link and a Fox 2.0 TS through shaft steering stabilizer. Even asked both places to take a closer look at the pitman arm.

Do you have geometry correcting brackets?
If not, with a lift over 2" you have taken the control arms out of parallel with the ground (and each other to some extent.

Make sure to check steering parts by hand, someone moving the steering wheel back and forth while feeling the joints. There are springs in the tie rod ends, drag link ends and so on so play may not be evident without the load of moving things on pavement (so the tires resist movement) and feeling for the pop or looseness.

My bet was on the drag link for my issue but I really don’t know. If money isn’t an issue for you, then I’d go for the tie rod next. Shouldn’t cost much in labor. I can’t remember the proper toe numbers (maybe just a tad positive though?), but I think castor should be in the lower-mid +6s range.

Some folks I’m sure don’t agree with the “throw money at it” approach, but I like process of elimination. The way I look at it is if proper alignment, upgraded tie rod, ball joints, track bar, control arms, etc don’t fix it, then maybe solid front axle just ain’t meant to be for me lol.

Factory tie rod and drag link are made for mostly factory angles and geometry. They may not be stiff enough and end up bowing then unbowing, and so on.

 

[DailyMoparGuy]

Can't correct shimmy or wobble or even take out play. All the electronics can do is control when the EHPS pump runs and the pressures put out. It has zero connection to the steering gear.

All a dealer can do as far as alignment is set toe and check things. The dealership can't change caster or camber without replacing parts. (and they aren't going to do that)
An alignment shop can set caster by replacing control arms with adjustable and/or geometry correcting brackets.
They can set camber with ball joint "shims" which involves a partial teardown to get them installed. (dealer isn't going to do that)



Do you have geometry correcting brackets?
If not, with a lift over 2" you have taken the control arms out of parallel with the ground (and each other to some extent.

Make sure to check steering parts by hand, someone moving the steering wheel back and forth while feeling the joints. There are springs in the tie rod ends, drag link ends and so on so play may not be evident without the load of moving things on pavement (so the tires resist movement) and feeling for the pop or looseness.



Factory tie rod and drag link are made for mostly factory angles and geometry. They may not be stiff enough and end up bowing then unbowing, and so on.

Very good point. I failed to mention that my wobble issues started AFTER 35s and Frankenstein lift.

 

[Mflowers11]

Do you have geometry correcting brackets?
If not, with a lift over 2" you have taken the control arms out of parallel with the ground (and each other to some extent.

Make sure to check steering parts by hand, someone moving the steering wheel back and forth while feeling the joints. There are springs in the tie rod ends, drag link ends and so on so play may not be evident without the load of moving things on pavement (so the tires resist movement) and feeling for the pop or looseness.

I installed Clayton adjustable upper control arms that allowed me to correct the castor. Will be getting the measurements today but should he good there.

Did both a lifted and weight bearing inspection. When had my son in it moving the steering wheel left to right, slowly and quickly looking and listening for any sign of movement and couldn’t find anything.

 

[Mad Mac]

And another thing...

When I had the Mopar leveling kit removed,
the doughnut spacers over the front coil springs,
and drove it 25 miles to an alignment shop,
it seemed to track straight and I thought, Eureka!

After the alignment, it was wandering again.
Sigh.

 

[Badunit]

Unless you have adjustable control arms, the only thing to align is toe. You could readjust it yourself blindly to see if you can find a happy spot that is still close to the spec (assuming they put it to spec). Put a paint mark where it is now and write down what you do so you can put it back. I wish I knew how many degrees of toe you get per turn on the adjuster but I do not. I don't know if a tenth of a degree of toe is a small fraction of a turn or more than a turn. Hopefully someone else knows.

 

[Lunentucker]

Setting a slight toe out may help, but it's a bandaid fix and it doesn't address the core issue of bad geometry or loose components.

Others here have found...
loose Pitman arm nut
loose steering gearbox bolts
cracked drag link mounts at the frame weld
loose ball joints

Did you watch every video?
There's more ways it can be wrong (dozens) than there are ways it can be right (1).

I highly recommend the Metalcloak sector shaft brace.
I highly recommend learning how to set your own toe and adjust caster properly.

I simply don't trust shops when I walk away and leave it to them to check everything.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/toe-in-vs-toe-out.66290/

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/going-digital-on-toe-settings.66231/

 

[Terminus33]

 

[AmosMoses]

I installed the falcon nexus stabilizer linked on the first page of this thread because I was trying to reduce a shimmy I had since it's gotten a little cooler out. So far so good. I've traveled some stretches that usually induce the shimmy and my steering has felt really solid. I really believe my problem is from a tire imbalance.

Thanks to the OP and everyone who's contributed to this thread. Lots of great information.

 

[ttn333]

Finally got to enjoy the experience of the infamous death wobble. I actually hadn't heard of it before since this is my first Jeep. Thought I had to pull over on the highway when my steering violently bounced left and right. Slowed down to about 30 and it was smooth sailing again. Took it in for alignment and found out the toe in was off and had couple of loose nuts on the front lower control arm including the jam nut. He tighten that up but couldn't get to the 190ftlb. Got home and retighten all nuts and bolts for the steering and suspension. There's no way I can get the 190ftlb torque either. No more death wobble but I'm having some vibration from the back and the shimmy in the front. Took it in for rotation and balance and sure enough, the balance was off. Forgot to ask how much but they said it was a good amount due to wear and some cupping. Sounds about right since the Toyo R/T has about 41K miles on it. Looks like it's time for a new set. Think I'll be moving up to some 38x13.5 Wild Peak R/T. In the mean while, I have the Falcon 2.2 SS coming in for those long highway drives. That's my story about the death wobble.

 

[Lunentucker]

Took it in for alignment and found out the toe in was off and had couple of loose nuts on the front lower control arm including the jam nut. He tighten that up but couldn't get to the 190ftlb. Got home and retighten all nuts and bolts for the steering and suspension. There's no way I can get the 190ftlb torque either.

THAT is why they also publish Ft. Lbs plus degrees in the specs.
It not only allows for the use of a lower range torque wrench, but it could also save a trip to the ER.


https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...torque-values-all-of-them-in-one-place.67915/

https://www.visnos.com/demos/basic-angles

 

[Batlou]

So I dropped my truck off to a local shop because after a year of driving and light wheeling I am starting to get a bit of float feel in the front end and got death wobble on the highway the other day. They called me back today and said that you cannot fix death wobble unless you go to a high steer kit and it's just part of owning a jeep with a lift. I disagree as my truck has been running tight up until the last 2 months or so.

The said the alignment was a little off and they resolved that. I asked if they would check all of the torque settings on the suspension but they keep insisting that doesn't matter. There is no fix unless I drop 3K on a high steer kit. I don't believe this for a second and just said I will come and pickup my jeep.

Has anyone else had a shop try to convince you that a jeep with a 2.5" lift and 37's is going to feel loose in the front and will likely have death wobble and there is no way to fix it. Super frustrated right now.

 

[whysoserious]

So I dropped my truck off to a local shop because after a year of driving and light wheeling I am starting to get a bit of float feel in the front end and got death wobble on the highway the other day. They called me back today and said that you cannot fix death wobble unless you go to a high steer kit and it's just part of owning a jeep with a lift. I disagree as my truck has been running tight up until the last 2 months or so.

The said the alignment was a little off and they resolved that. I asked if they would check all of the torque settings on the suspension but they keep insisting that doesn't matter. There is no fix unless I drop 3K on a high steer kit. I don't believe this for a second and just said I will come and pickup my jeep.

Has anyone else had a shop try to convince you that a jeep with a 2.5" lift and 37's is going to feel loose in the front and will likely have death wobble and there is no way to fix it. Super frustrated right now.

Never had a death wobble that wasn't fixable. I've had three. 2011 F-250, 2017 JKUR and 2021 JT. The F-250 was stock, just had worn parts. The 2017 JKUR had a 3.5" lift with 37's and no "high steer". My 2021 JT Mojave has a 3.5" (4" actual) with 37's and no "high steer". Diagnosed my 2021 prior to replacing the steering stabilizer, post lift. My alignment was out of wack. Still trying out figure out how that happened. Anyway, drives like a dream now. One of these days I might take it in for an alignment just to see how close I have it.

Never had a "high steer" system. None of my vehicles felt/feel loose. Instead of a new "high steer" system, I'd find a new shop.

BTW, these were true death wobble and repeatable. Would not stop violent shake until I came to a stop.

 

[MPMB]

So I dropped my truck off to a local shop because after a year of driving and light wheeling I am starting to get a bit of float feel in the front end and got death wobble on the highway the other day. They called me back today and said that you cannot fix death wobble unless you go to a high steer kit and it's just part of owning a jeep with a lift. I disagree as my truck has been running tight up until the last 2 months or so.

The said the alignment was a little off and they resolved that. I asked if they would check all of the torque settings on the suspension but they keep insisting that doesn't matter. There is no fix unless I drop 3K on a high steer kit. I don't believe this for a second and just said I will come and pickup my jeep.

Has anyone else had a shop try to convince you that a jeep with a 2.5" lift and 37's is going to feel loose in the front and will likely have death wobble and there is no way to fix it. Super frustrated right now.

How did you do the lift?

I just put a 2.5" Icon lift w/ LCAs on a week ago and just swapped OEM wheels and tires with 37s and 8.5"w wheels. There was a light shake at about 57mph with the OEM wheels, I'm going to chalk that up to light wheel torque.

Since everything's been swapped, I've had no issues. I have a nice high-speed run area, if I don't get stuck behind a construction vehicle. Speedo said 75mph and I was steady.

I still have to crawl underneath it this weekend and retorque everything.

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