Rocksport Black shocks - good replacement for stock Mojave Shocks?

[Zachanadandy]

Think you knew I was comparing apples to apples , still dont think the factory shocks are very good or else everyine would be buying longer versions of the same exact shock.
Was gonna say more but don't feel like getting into it with you. Good day.

If you find longer versions of the stock shocks for the $2-3k most people spend going to fox 2.5 dscs, rocksport blacks, or kings let me know. The reason most don't upgrade to long travel bypass shocks is two fold. They are very expensive being number 1. The fact that most don't know what a bypass is or how it works being number 2.

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[Jrgunn5150]

I used to think our Mojave rode great until I didn't drive it for about 2 months. After dailying my Ram on Carli Backcountry system, I see it doesn't lol.

And I'm not going to do anything about it, doesn't bother the wife, so I'll just ignore it I guess.

Wouldn't mind finding another set of cheap shocks to have rebuilt so I could swap them out, but they're still working fine for us at 62k.

 

[Bandit’s Lair]

Think you knew I was comparing apples to apples , still dont think the factory shocks are very good or else everyine would be buying longer versions of the same exact shock.
Was gonna say more but don't feel like getting into it with you. Good day.

No please do get into it!! I mean the discussion on shocks of course. The more input like this the more I learn and a lot of other people learn. Too much hoopla out there when it comes to this subject that seems misleading. Not saying fight over it but a good spirited discussion usually drops those knowledge bombs that I look for.

Im looking to build my Sport into a Mojabicon so the more input I can find helps me get to that goal. I like to crawl low and slow but some of those washes get that wild hair goin too.

 

[bleda2002]

I used to think our Mojave rode great until I didn't drive it for about 2 months. After dailying my Ram on Carli Backcountry system, I see it doesn't lol.

And I'm not going to do anything about it, doesn't bother the wife, so I'll just ignore it I guess.

Wouldn't mind finding another set of cheap shocks to have rebuilt so I could swap them out, but they're still working fine for us at 62k.

I've not been super impressed with the Mojave ride from factory after driving my father's quite a bit vs my modded Rubicon and the wife's wrangler. It's fine but I didn't think it was some mind blowing far and away amazing ride for normal street use. The hydro bumps and the bypass will help on big whoops to stop the big crash outs for sure as they're supposed to, but for street use it was merely decent.

I would love to get a set of the eclicks, but I'm just not unhappy enough with the suspension to spend that much yet.

 

[KevinC]

If you are not driving longer distance over washboard type terrain, do you really need remote reservoir shocks? The additional reservoir is what keeps the oil cool when it is being constantly cycled for long periods. The triple valving is going to work only when you are using it.

My thoughts are when my factory shocks are in need of rebuild, I will look into what is the best cost-effective decision. One the of those factors - have I used the factory shocks as they are intended or did they just wear out from daily driving?

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Looked up the Rock Sports, pricing at 1200 seems reasonable enough to me, but not if I'm expected to fully rebuild them in 60k lol.

 

[Zachanadandy]

Looked up the Rock Sports, pricing at 1200 seems reasonable enough to me, but not if I'm expected to fully rebuild them in 60k lol.

Every off road shock should be rebuilt that often or more often. Just because people get away with not rebuilding doesn't mean the shocks are working nearly as good as they should.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Every off road shock should be rebuilt that often or more often. Just because people get away with not rebuilding doesn't mean the shocks are working nearly as good as they should.

You can rebuild your shocks as often as you like chief, it's a free country.

I know you only drive yours in 4 low across the Rubicon at 75 mph for 375 miles at a stretch and simply cannot conscious anything less than peak off road performance because it's a Jeep and you use it to 110% of it's capabilities 110% of the time.

Totally get that.

I'm not spending 1200 bucks on shocks every 2 years.

 

[MPMB]

If you are not driving longer distance over washboard type terrain, do you really need remote reservoir shocks? The additional reservoir is what keeps the oil cool when it is being constantly cycled for long periods. The triple valving is going to work only when you are using it.

My thoughts are when my factory shocks are in need of rebuild, I will look into what is the best cost-effective decision. One the of those factors - have I used the factory shocks as they are intended or did they just wear out from daily driving?

Note: grab a coffee or bev of choice. I get long winded here.

It doesn't hurt. Like pretty much everything, it's all a compromise.

Assuming you correctly figure out what you're doing with the shocks... In addition to the adjustability and extra fluid volume, you also have more points of leakage and more weight.

There's a range at which MFGs are going to make the shock function to balance road ride quality and off-road ride quality. For the Mojave and Rubicon, those shocks are going to be capable of say, 70% of what's possible with shock technology (Mojave shocks for high speed washboard, Rubicon shocks for slow body control - not the same shocks, for clarification).

Willys, Sport, Overland get shocks that perform 50% of off-road shocks capability, but it allows the shocks to perform 80% of on-road capability. It could perform better, but it's limited by solid axles, so there's no point pushing it to be better. You don't need a 15' ladder for an 8' wall.

If you want better off-road performance, you're going to pay for something from a specialist or tuner, because an OEM product won't get you there. You may or may not have to compromise on road quality - it depends completely on your suspension package. My setup from ICON was pretty good when I had all the weight in the back. Now it feels like a 3/4-ton.

Having multiple ways to adjust shocks can definitely help get the best for each scenario. And ride quality can be subjective, too. Like a mattress. Some like it firm, others like sleeping on a giant pile of mashed potatoes.


Tech Talk
It's been a few years since I dealt with shocks, we messed around creating our own combos until we hired a guy to build them. I'll give some basic info so those who don't know will be able to grasp the concepts of how all these things work together.

The statement earlier about the piston being larger affecting the speed vs. a smaller piston - that's a little disingenuous. Piston size only matters if you assume the holes in the pistons are equal between the two, and they likely aren't.

I would love to get into all the stuff about pistons, but that's just a ball of wax that I never got to unravel and experiment with. Linear/progressive/digressive/velocity dependent/etc.

Here's a Penske shock piston in Linear/Linear config:

Here's King vs. Fox linear piston:

You notice that the way the ports are machined, they are at different heights. No port can be sealed up by one solid shim across the face of the piston.

This picture depicts the shim stack - or valving - of the shock on the piston:

See how some ports are still open? Those ports control slow-speed/low-speed shock action. Shock oil passes through those ports as the piston travels through the shock body. That's what controls the speed of low-speed rebound and compression (for "basic" shocks w/o external adjusters).

What defines "low-speed"? Anything under 3" of travel per second is how I knew it. Some manufacturers/tuners may define it differently. Depending on how smooth a driver you are, that could be corner entry at a racetrack, taking a cloverleaf on-ramp at 50mph, or approaching a stop sign at a residential street.


Shim Stacks or Shock Valving
The terms aren't quite interchangeable, as shim stacks affect shock valving, and shock valving include the piston and shim stacks. But some use them as the same. If I slip and use them interchangeably, it's just that I'm being a lazy writer.

Before all this "stuff" became a thing, our race shocks were valved from the manufacturer and stamped with the valving, usually a number 1-10. 5 meant it was 5 rebound, 5 compression, middle of the road shock. A 4 - 6 shock was 4 rebound 6 compression, meaning it had less rebound and stiffer compression. This slowed the weight transfer to this wheel, but sped up the weight transfer away from the wheel.

With shim stacks, valving is infinitely more customizable. Shims are nothing more than thin washers you stack to give a shock a desired high-speed resistance (oversimplification). Shims come in a variety of thickness and widths for your every whim.

Shock broken down by piece:

You can create any combo you want with the shims. The main thing is to have the big one cover the ports. Because that's what activates the shim stack during high-speed movement. The pressure of the oil will bend the shim stack to let the oil pass.

The constant bending - or open/close - of the shims is why these types of shocks need to be rebuilt. Metal can only flex so many times before it gets fatigued, and eventually it can fail completely by breaking.

Back in the racing days, a monkey-see monkey-do thing we did was put "travel shocks" on the car. Because the car sits in a trailer for 3-4 hours driving to the track, bouncing along, that's 3-4 hours of wear on the shocks. Yeah, we stopped doing that after thinking about it for 5 minutes. 95% of all that travel was low-speed, so no wear on the shim stack. And our events were maybe 1 hour, 2 hours if a crash fest, yet the guys on Sunday are racing for ~4 hours in cars heavier than ours, without any problems.


Part 3 in the 3-way Adjustable Shocks
Other than the shim stacks, there are a couple different methods to offer adjustments. A valve in the shock shaft operated by a rotating clicker at the base of the shaft, a valve or shim stack in the remote reservoir, or some similar contraption. These are the "3-way adjustable" part of the 3-way adjustable or triple-valved shocks. Oil flow is controlled through 3 distinct "valves" (I haven't looked at all shocks on this, so it's an assumption. I could be completely wrong). Technically shim stacks are adjustable, just not convenient.

What gets adjusted and where is how the adjustment becomes low-speed or high-speed adjustment.

[If all this is crazy and seems overly complicated, why yes, it is possible to run two shocks per wheel, one compression, one rebound. You just need to engineer the mounts for them. ]


Charging Shocks
This is a big thing. Don't use air. Don't grab your compressor and top off your shocks. Air from any compressor uses "atmospheric air" - the stuff around us. That's filled with humidity (in some places) or your compressor is. Atmospheric air also expands under heat. Like your tires. On road trips they gain ~6 PSI, right? And that's from a small friction-based temperature gain. Imagine the gain inside a shock body where the oil went from 60* to 300*? Use nitrogen. Heat-induced PSI gain will be a lot less.

Follow manufacturer's guidelines on PSI. PSI holds cavitation at bay and it invites repeatability. We would pressurize after rebuilding, purge, then recharge.

Fun note - When shocks say "nitrogen charged" and you don't see a valve or blocked port to add nitrogen/air, it means the shock has a little plastic baggie inside that is filled with nitrogen. Like a ketchup packet from McDonald's, only nitrogen.


Adding Everything Together For The Ultimate in Compromising!
So there are many paths to get your "perfect" shock package - or rather setting. Piston, shim stack, stack preload (I didn't discuss it, but it's self-explanatory), PSI charge, and even the shock oil will all contribute to the final shock setting. You can sit in your garage for days trying to build your dream shock package.

Yes, it is quite possible that you switch oils because it was the only one you could get, and only charged the shocks to 100psi instead of 150psi, and you find that your shocks feel like crap. That definitely is a thing.

So digest this. 'Cause you're just going to throw it out the window when we move to 4-way adjustable shocks.


Oh. Don't forget, you really should match it with capable springs, too.

 

[rharr]

Charging Shocks
This is a big thing. Don't use air. Don't grab your compressor and top off your shocks. Air from any compressor uses "atmospheric air" - the stuff around us. That's filled with humidity (in some places) or your compressor is. Atmospheric air also expands under heat. Like your tires. On road trips they gain ~6 PSI, right? And that's from a small friction-based temperature gain. Imagine the gain inside a shock body where the oil went from 60* to 300*? Use nitrogen. Heat-induced PSI gain will be a lot less.

Good summary. BTW Argon is becoming a popular charging gas too as it is more common for people with welders at home, has a bigger molecule size (slows down gas escaping) and is a noble non reactive gas.

 

[MPMB]

Good summary. BTW Argon is becoming a popular charging gas too as it is more common for people with welders at home, has a bigger molecule size (slows down gas escaping) and is a noble non reactive gas.

Interesting.

The reasoning behind our using nitrogen was cost, availability (even Costco has nitrogen), and it's weight is closer to actual atmospheric air. Argon (atomic mass of 39) is heavier than nitrogen (atomic mass of 14). It's not much of a difference at the level of shocks, but every bit helps in racing.

Since we use nitrogen in the tires, it's easier to use it in shocks as well. No sense in complicating things (yes, you would be surprised).

With AI's help, since my maths didn't go this far - a 37" tire on 17s holds about 3.86 cubic feet of gas. That's about .4lbs of argon vs. .28lbs of nitrogen x 4.

 

[rharr]

Interesting.

The reasoning behind our using nitrogen was cost, availability (even Costco has nitrogen), and it's weight is closer to actual atmospheric air. Argon (atomic mass of 39) is heavier than nitrogen (atomic mass of 14). It's not much of a difference at the level of shocks, but every bit helps in racing.

Since we use nitrogen in the tires, it's easier to use it in shocks as well. No sense in complicating things (yes, you would be surprised).

With AI's help, since my maths didn't go this far - a 37" tire on 17s holds about 3.86 cubic feet of gas. That's about .4lbs of argon vs. .28lbs of nitrogen x 4.

I see where you are going but I don't see argon being a cost effective solution for tire fills or a good use for it. For small volume things like shocks for small shops or DIY'rs Argon vs ntrogen, argon might be a good option if you already have a tank of argon for welding.

 

[Stan H]

No please do get into it!! I mean the discussion on shocks of course. The more input like this the more I learn and a lot of other people learn. Too much hoopla out there when it comes to this subject that seems misleading. Not saying fight over it but a good spirited discussion usually drops those knowledge bombs that I look for.

Im looking to build my Sport into a Mojabicon so the more input I can find helps me get to that goal. I like to crawl low and slow but some of those washes get that wild hair goin too.

There are so many great shock makers that are better than the factory Fox shocks even those factory on the mojave. Jounce speed bumps progressive bump stops should be bought , Falcon SP2 3.3's are at a great price point and are some of the best out there. Kings makes an excellent shock as well ,SDI E-clicks if you want to go full tilt electronic tuning are more than excellent shocks. Choose shocks matched to the amount of lifts you have . Stock stock length shocks, 2.5-3.5" or 4-6" lift .
Most importantly never tell you wife or whomever how much anything cost

 

[MPMB]

Most importantly never tell you wife or whomever how much anything cost

A shock for me, a purse for her.
A shock for me, a pair of shoes for her.
A shock for me, a purse for her.
A shock for me, a pair of shoes for her.

 

[bleda2002]

A shock for me, a purse for her.
A shock for me, a pair of shoes for her.
A shock for me, a purse for her.
A shock for me, a pair of shoes for her.

I bought a zoli shotgun, I ended up having to get the wife a purse as well. She waited almost a year to cash in on me, but that purse cost almost as much as my zoli =/

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