Ecodiesel power derating as temps rise?

[Mr._Bill]

Jeep engineers had to know about the cooling issues with the diesel. Why didn't they just put in a thicker radiator, there's room. Maybe lawyers should get involved for falsifying towing claims.

The 'best in class' towing claims are for the gas engine models. The Jeep engineers did the best they could with what they had to work with.

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[Glad_he_ate]

The 'best in class' towing claims are for the gas engine models. The Jeep engineers did the best they could with what they had to work with.

I’ll agree to disagree. “ the best they can do with what they had” ?? They had unlimited options, they chose the cheapest and easiest option.
For no reason other then cost they went with the same cooling solution they used in the ram, even though they found it insufficient for the jeep. For no reason other then cost they avoided using a separate oil cooler. They could have easily during r and d said wait this ain’t working let’s change it. Rather then do so they put out a blanket statement saying due to the reduced area in the front we are limited in cooling. No your not you just don’t want to add a remote cooler.
End rant for now, I have to go to work

 

[Ball_Ze]

I’ll agree to disagree. “ the best they can do with what they had” ?? They had unlimited options, they chose the cheapest and easiest option.

And the engineers did the best they did with what they had to work with.

If you think the engineers had unlimited options, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I’ll agree to disagree. “ the best they can do with what they had” ?? They had unlimited options, they chose the cheapest and easiest option.
For no reason other then cost they went with the same cooling solution they used in the ram, even though they found it insufficient for the jeep. For no reason other then cost they avoided using a separate oil cooler. They could have easily during r and d said wait this ain’t working let’s change it. Rather then do so they put out a blanket statement saying due to the reduced area in the front we are limited in cooling. No your not you just don’t want to add a remote cooler.
End rant for now, I have to go to work

Unlimited options? Really? Like what? Any change to the shape, size or structure of the vehicle meant back to the drawing board, so to speak, as far as all of the crash testing, EPA/CAFE numbers, SAE testing for payload/towing, change A and suddenly the engineer working with B is having to change their area. It's a system, not a collection of parts.

So where would you add an oil cooler that will actually be exposed to air that would cool the oil. It's got to be air that hasn't already passed through the radiator, and it's got to avoid damage if taken off road. The lines to and from have to be protected from rocks and damage. There has to be sufficient flow of oil and air through the cooler to be of any good.
But is it the OIL that needs cooling, or is the oil hot because the engine itself is running too hot?

There's a reason the diesel stops at 3.0 liters............ and is made how they are......... think "EU".

Why didn't they just put in a thicker radiator, there's room.

Room............ you mean more rows in the core............ there's added weight for reduced payload, there's added weight and mass for collision testing, and there's actually a point of diminishing returns on radiator sizes. Once you reach a certain point, the rear rows in a radiator are being hit by HOT air, almost the temperature of the coolant itself, so the rear row after a point actually does nothing, or at least very little. If the coolant is 230 and the air is 220, there's no time for that air to absorb the heat from that last row meaning it goes back basically as hot as it came out.
You also slow the air down with more obstructions. Air restriction through a core is increased with thickness.
So there are multiple reasons for not having a "thicker" as you call it radiator. Engineers sometimes DO know more than you do............
I know from my training and background - this isn't a "why didn't they just do.........." thing.

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

I think I posted this in the wrong thread… ??‍ Anyway- here is the response from bulletproof. Looks like they are perusing coolant improvements and not oil cooling directly.

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

Unlimited options? Really? Like what? Any change to the shape, size or structure of the vehicle meant back to the drawing board, so to speak, as far as all of the crash testing, EPA/CAFE numbers, SAE testing for payload/towing, change A and suddenly the engineer working with B is having to change their area. It's a system, not a collection of parts.

So where would you add an oil cooler that will actually be exposed to air that would cool the oil. It's got to be air that hasn't already passed through the radiator, and it's got to avoid damage if taken off road. The lines to and from have to be protected from rocks and damage. There has to be sufficient flow of oil and air through the cooler to be of any good.
But is it the OIL that needs cooling, or is the oil hot because the engine itself is running too hot?

There's a reason the diesel stops at 3.0 liters............ and is made how they are......... think "EU".



Room............ you mean more rows in the core............ there's added weight for reduced payload, there's added weight and mass for collision testing, and there's actually a point of diminishing returns on radiator sizes. Once you reach a certain point, the rear rows in a radiator are being hit by HOT air, almost the temperature of the coolant itself, so the rear row after a point actually does nothing, or at least very little. If the coolant is 230 and the air is 220, there's no time for that air to absorb the heat from that last row meaning it goes back basically as hot as it came out.
You also slow the air down with more obstructions. Air restriction through a core is increased with thickness.
So there are multiple reasons for not having a "thicker" as you call it radiator. Engineers sometimes DO know more than you do............
I know from my training and background - this isn't a "why didn't they just do.........." thing.

It kind of feels like you enjoy arguing.


An auxiliary oil cooler with Sufficient CFM fans can be placed in many different places.
An oil cooler doesn’t have to be placed in the front of the vehicle- most desert race applications have many cooling components in the Rear- and not facing forward ??….

Having worked with engineers my entire adult life…. They are still human. If we are to stem into profiles…. Most engineers I have worked with are very good at specifications an their requirements, but very few are good at matching specifications and requirements with creative solutions. - though we are talking about an auto manufacturer. The likely choice and solution to this problem is produce a product that makes the majority happy and costs the least to produce…. Think about it- the gladiator is Far from FCA’s lead diesel application. Makes more sense to make the ram 1500 folks the happiest, then wrangler, then gladiator.



Personally- I feel that the antifreeze cooling system is sufficient.

I will be perusing an oil cooling system, and once I a fed up and frustrated with that- I’ll delete it, and live a happy life with soot free oil, free flowing exhaust (lower EGT’s), likely a cooler oil operating temp! And maybe a couple more MPG’s! ?

Happy Monday!

 

[@californiajeeping]

Unlimited options? Really? Like what? Any change to the shape, size or structure of the vehicle meant back to the drawing board, so to speak, as far as all of the crash testing, EPA/CAFE numbers, SAE testing for payload/towing, change A and suddenly the engineer working with B is having to change their area. It's a system, not a collection of parts.

So where would you add an oil cooler that will actually be exposed to air that would cool the oil. It's got to be air that hasn't already passed through the radiator, and it's got to avoid damage if taken off road. The lines to and from have to be protected from rocks and damage. There has to be sufficient flow of oil and air through the cooler to be of any good.
But is it the OIL that needs cooling, or is the oil hot because the engine itself is running too hot?

There's a reason the diesel stops at 3.0 liters............ and is made how they are......... think "EU".



Room............ you mean more rows in the core............ there's added weight for reduced payload, there's added weight and mass for collision testing, and there's actually a point of diminishing returns on radiator sizes. Once you reach a certain point, the rear rows in a radiator are being hit by HOT air, almost the temperature of the coolant itself, so the rear row after a point actually does nothing, or at least very little. If the coolant is 230 and the air is 220, there's no time for that air to absorb the heat from that last row meaning it goes back basically as hot as it came out.
You also slow the air down with more obstructions. Air restriction through a core is increased with thickness.
So there are multiple reasons for not having a "thicker" as you call it radiator. Engineers sometimes DO know more than you do............
I know from my training and background - this isn't a "why didn't they just do.........." thing.

The dual row radiator adds more cores which can reduce airflow but typically does not.

The second row is half as efficient as a single row but you have still added 100% capacity.....so a good improvement.

Airflow to a oil cooler doesnt matter if it has fans. I linked some solutions for that.....

Most likely if you removed the cooling lines to the stock heat exchanger and went external oil cooler only using the fittings on the housing then it will be able to drop the oil temps lower and create "headroom" before a derate. Your temps would drop to 190-200 on the flat then have to climb 60 degrees on a hill before a derate. This would work. Currently if you keep the oil cooler/heat exchanger that runs on engine coolant it becomes a heater and fights your external oil cooler.

 

[Jefe1018]

Unlimited options? Really? Like what? Any change to the shape, size or structure of the vehicle meant back to the drawing board, so to speak, as far as all of the crash testing, EPA/CAFE numbers, SAE testing for payload/towing, change A and suddenly the engineer working with B is having to change their area. It's a system, not a collection of parts.

So where would you add an oil cooler that will actually be exposed to air that would cool the oil. It's got to be air that hasn't already passed through the radiator, and it's got to avoid damage if taken off road. The lines to and from have to be protected from rocks and damage. There has to be sufficient flow of oil and air through the cooler to be of any good.
But is it the OIL that needs cooling, or is the oil hot because the engine itself is running too hot?

There's a reason the diesel stops at 3.0 liters............ and is made how they are......... think "EU".



Room............ you mean more rows in the core............ there's added weight for reduced payload, there's added weight and mass for collision testing, and there's actually a point of diminishing returns on radiator sizes. Once you reach a certain point, the rear rows in a radiator are being hit by HOT air, almost the temperature of the coolant itself, so the rear row after a point actually does nothing, or at least very little. If the coolant is 230 and the air is 220, there's no time for that air to absorb the heat from that last row meaning it goes back basically as hot as it came out.
You also slow the air down with more obstructions. Air restriction through a core is increased with thickness.
So there are multiple reasons for not having a "thicker" as you call it radiator. Engineers sometimes DO know more than you do............
I know from my training and background - this isn't a "why didn't they just do.........." thing.

I don’t think they had unlimited options either but not because of “engineering restraints” as much as it was a monetary one. They gave us the best they could while still making bean counters happy.

Is your new truck going to be a diesel?

 

[Rusty PW]

The OEM heat exchanger does 2 things. One of which it's not very good at. It heats the oil up when cold. The second thing is to cool the oil once at operating temperature. And we all know how that works out.

 

[Samfamaz]

I think I posted this in the wrong thread… ??‍ Anyway- here is the response from bulletproof. Looks like they are perusing coolant improvements and not oil cooling directly.

How do I get on that list? I'm down for coolant temp reduction.

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

How do I get on that list? I'm down for coolant temp reduction.

Shoot them an email.

 

[Samfamaz]

Shoot them an email.

Lol, actually being a turbo builder in Tempe it turns out we know a couple guys down there. Working on getting on the list ahead of all you folks! JK! (Or am I?) ?

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

Lol, actually being a turbo builder in Tempe it turns out we know a couple guys down there. Working on getting on the list ahead of all you folks! JK! (Or am I?) ?

When you have good friends…. You have good friends…. ?

 

[pmpmstrb]

Lol, actually being a turbo builder in Tempe it turns out we know a couple guys down there. Working on getting on the list ahead of all you folks! JK! (Or am I?) ?

I live down in Maricopa. Current heat has been brutal. Getting ready to order an oil filter housing to take some measurements and have a cooler adapter plate made to replace the factory heat exchanger.

 

[Escape.idiocracy]

I put in an oil cooler to help with temps. I would say I get an average 10ish degree drop. I just used the bungs that are already on the motor next to the factory oil cooler. I didn't use a pump but I've considered it. I think the bigger problem is EGTs.
Didn't get a lot of pictures. Will try to get some next time I'm under there

I have been contemplating this, since you posted this.

What does not make any sense to me- this hookup is “too easy”- obviously you haven’t grenades your motor.- or at least yet. But I find it hard to believe with how many companies have made plates for the previous generation, or are actively designing aluminum radiator for this application didn’t think about connecting a couple line fittings, some hose, and an oil cooler……

We (we as in those actively participating in this thread) are missing a key piece of information that has kept companies from going down this road.


I am not knocking you by any means! I think it’s great! Something just isn’t right…. This is too simple of a solution to make money on…..

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