Genesis batteries - lets do some math

[chorky]

Is there a lithium replacement to do both the auxiliary and the main battery? I'd like to do the delete of the aux, but think it's best to keep both for the ECU and other components to keep their functionality. I seen where someone did the antigravity in their Jeeps and their Ferrari, but I'm sure loosing their Jeep probably wouldn't hurt their pockets as bad as mine.

Well, this is my opinion, and theres a few here who would argue against me (for good reason) but.....no.

Theres a lot to consider here, and much of it revolves around your individual and specific use case, which is often ignored. There is no single 'perfect' solution for everyone.

Climate, to me, is first and foremost. Lithium does not like the cold (or the heat). My winter temperatures are far too low to reliably and reasonably expect good charging for a lithium battery on a regular basis - with current tech to my knowledge. On a trip...sure, but for day to day when underwood temperatures won't get above 70 degrees nonetheless thaw out a battery that has sat in -25 degrees for anywhere from 15 hours to 2.5 weeks? No.

Charging methods is another factor. AGM and lithium need different charging styles. Both in the form of voltage, amperage, and length of time. Lithium charges significantly faster than AGM, but the details get lost it seems and it's an important factor. Our rigs are designed around AGM - AGM also has a different rate of discharge, and a different rate of voltage drop, than lithium. The computers may (or may not) be affected adversely by just throwing in a lithium battery. I know there are lots of folks with money to burn who have just thrown things in there and say it works. But that's vastly different than benchmarking something to make sure it actually functions appropriately.

Discharging is also a factor kinda already mentioned. But, I have no clue what a lithium discharge rate or capacity is. It is well known that the typical lithium battery (like viltron, or any other of the high end options) have (at least in the past) specifically stated that lithium is not good for uses of high amp loads, even in the short term. They are best for low amp draw (think of your fridge, and lights, and maybe some fans - nothing even remotely close to 400 amps). So think of how much power your starter draws on a cold -15 degree day... Even with internal heaters, how long will the battery need to warm up before a lithium battery will accept a charge? 5 minutes? 60? There have been plenty of discussions and info I have seen talking about all sorts of bad things from trying to use lithium for a winch or other high load application. Lots of unknowns here until some real scientific testing and benchmarking is done.

Let's also look at capacity. The Genesis system has group 24 batteries. So, they are rated at 76.8 amps of power. AGM can be drained without damage to 70% SOC. So that equates to about 23 amps available for use before recharging is needed. Now, because opinions, I need to clarify that an AGM can be drained as far as 40% SOC. Past 40% immediate and permanent damage results. How significant that damage is? Who knows, it depends on a lot of factors. But 70% is sorta the 'standard' so that's the number I stick with where it is known that lifecycles don't drastically reduce down to that point. That is also the number recommended by various battery manufacturers. The antigravity battery is rated at 60 amps of power. I believe lithium (depending) can be drained to about 30% without damage or drastic lifecycle reduction. This equates to about 42 amps available. So thats about double. But the financial cost, and unknown charging situation cost, to get there is more than double. And they are widely considered 'fragile' compared to an AGM so although their charge/discharge lifecycles are significantly higher than led acid, being more susceptible to damage from vibrations and jolting as compared to AGM, I'm not so confident that they would truly, long term, last longer or even at least as long as an AGM. That would just take time and experimentation - in span of 5 years (or less if there was a failure). I'm sure other sized batteries would be in a similar boat.

The caveat is supposedly the internal circuitry of some lithium batteries, such as the antigravity battery, supports being able to be charged the same as an AGM. But I'm calling that bluff until some real numbers or benchmarked data, diagrams, and engineering documents come out and several people use that configuration for 3 years without premature failure. I just don't see how that's possible when it's known AGM and lithium require different charging styles. Now - would it work? Sure. But at the compromise of something.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/automotive/ag-24-rs/. Also, in their documents and videos they make all sorts of talk about factory battery replacement and their self jump start (which seems bogus to me), but they don't talk about the application where there could be very high amperage draws - so maybe for a sports care it would be cool, or your daily driver (but thats expensive for a commuter), I don't see the benefit for camping unless you are using lithium as a separate battery system to run all your house items.

Bottom line is - AGM is proven for rough riding environments seen in a Jeep. It's not the 'best'. It's not the option with the most available ah to use - but it has been in use for 20 years and its shortcomings are well known. Lithium is also massively popular with a lot of folks, especially the huge million dollar Earth Roamers. Some of their downfalls maybe are not a big deal to you - so that is a personal decision that must be weighed. But here's the thing. At $1,000 a pop for a Group 24 - that is a HUGE financial risk in my opinion, for a very unknown return. For me personally - lithium, unless doing the YouTube video style of overloading, is not necessary and adds complications.

I do think some folks here are currently, or planning on, using antigravity though - maybe they will chime in. Matt at Ozark Overland Adventures uses deep cycle antigravity lithium batteries for his house battery setup - but it is critical to not that his aux system is a totally separate system from the rest of his factory vehicle electronics. I think in the future lithium will be the way to go - just for myself, not sold on it (for my specific use case) for now. I dont know if they have a direct replacement for the group 31 or the small aux battery. If the group 24 is a thousand bucks - I bet a group 31 would easily be pushing $1,500. Also, antigravity is unique in that they have an integrated BMS in each individual battery. If you try and take any random lithium battery, without an integrated BMS to convert AGM methods of charging into lithium methods - you're risking major problems.

Now all that being said - if in fact their reliability in the cold, rough environments, and charging/discharging abilities is truly equal to AGM in every way, then I would certainly put one in replacement of the aux AGM battery of my Genesis, in the future when the currently new AGM dies. But at 35% more cost - I would want assurances and guarantees that it would work without problems.

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[ShadowsPapa]

Is there a lithium replacement to do both the auxiliary and the main battery? I'd like to do the delete of the aux, but think it's best to keep both for the ECU and other components to keep their functionality. I seen where someone did the antigravity in their Jeeps and their Ferrari, but I'm sure loosing their Jeep probably wouldn't hurt their pockets as bad as mine.

I would personally not go lithium.
For one thing, if the battery you choose isn't equipped with its own electronics to modify the charging voltage and current, there could be damage.
These trucks, as with any vehicle with a "smart charging system" is going to act as if there is an AGM battery installed. It's going to read the temperature, amperage out, amperage in, and other factors, and tweak the system voltage as if there's an AGM battery there.
There are batteries that have their own electronics built into them to deal with that.

Personally, I guess I don't see the attraction, cost, etc. vs. putting in a high quality AGM battery as large as will fit.

 

[chorky]

I would personally not go lithium.
For one thing, if the battery you choose isn't equipped with its own electronics to modify the charging voltage and current, there could be damage.
These trucks, as with any vehicle with a "smart charging system" is going to act as if there is an AGM battery installed. It's going to read the temperature, amperage out, amperage in, and other factors, and tweak the system voltage as if there's an AGM battery there.
There are batteries that have their own electronics built into them to deal with that.

Personally, I guess I don't see the attraction, cost, etc. vs. putting in a high quality AGM battery as large as will fit.

totally agree - I wonder how long it might be before manufacturers start finding ways to make a charging system or vehicle system work with lithium - or even better, be able to detect led acid, vs AGM vs lithium and charge/operate accordingly. That would be some pretty cool tech!!

I'm also a little confused on a bunch of aspects to the antigravity batteries specifically. I tried looking for a bunch of info and data on them (not extensively though) and didn't find much. It's interesting that they note that below a particular voltage the internal circuitry will shut off the battery basically so it doesn't get drained to a point of damage - that's....kinda cool. Cool to save the battery. Not cool because, depending on the particular use for the battery, a vehicle being without any sort of power for days/weeks probably wouldn't not be great for memory of all the control modules - some of them still require a bit of electricities to prevent loosing memory, but I think most of them these days have internal watch battery backup's.

Another particular part of interest is the jump start. If the battery is dead, as they put it in plain English, then how are they randomly getting new power just from a button. Are there electric ghosts coming to live and crawling under your engine? I suspect all it is doing is overriding that 'sleep' mode it gets put into to prevent battery damage in order to at least get a start. That's kinda cool...but also kinda not. I think in this situation I'd rather just have a jump-starter on board with me, good practice anyway. But, as much as I nitpick and talk negative about this topic, it is cool that there is a company working to at least try to figure out other battery methods. Just means that there is more going on in the market for future developments.

They also make zero mention about operating temps, specifically cold temps, or internal heaters. I'm sure that is 'standard' across the industry now, but still....I think it would be important to mention. And they make a point to compare it as being more robust that a led acid battery with rough terrain and roads - but not with an AGM so I suspect it still would fail in 'Jeep' situations where AGM's are just the optimum tool for constant vibration and jolting.

Is there a lithium replacement to do both the auxiliary and the main battery? I'd like to do the delete of the aux, but think it's best to keep both for the ECU and other components to keep their functionality. I seen where someone did the antigravity in their Jeeps and their Ferrari, but I'm sure loosing their Jeep probably wouldn't hurt their pockets as bad as mine.

So. I did a little more math today just.....because I wanted to know. And your comment got me thinking - maybe when my new group 24 battery for the genesis system dies I will look at antigravity for the aux battery portion since lithium is known for being 'better' for house systems and longer/lower drain abilities. I know you are not necessarily talking about using the antigravity for camping accessories with the engine off, but I suspect that is the actual intent... Otherwise lithium really makes zero sense at all for just a starting and vehicle operational battery.

So, without going into the details, because the results were surprising (unless my math is wrong which I'm running on 3 hours of sleep so maybe...), I will just summarize.

Ok actually I just checked my math and yeah 3 hours is not enough sleep. So I redact my 'surprised' statement and what I assumed would be is true.

Quick recap/baseline:
In MY specific example, I am assuming an amp need of 28.465 per 24 hours - this assumes using my items for my assumed timeframe. I highlight this because results can vary significantly. The full river full throttle group 24 batteries I have from the genesis kit are rated at 64ah for a 20 hour rate which equates to 76.8 ah available. At a minimum DOD of 70%, it means 23.04 ah is available for use without battery damage.

New math/battery:
Assuming ONE SINGLE group 24 antigravity starting battery with internal BMS system to replace ONLY the genesis aux battery and NOT the starting battery - it is rated at 60ah, so based on the lithium charge/discharge differences and assuming a safe DOD down to 30% you have 42ah available. So nearly double the full river full throttle AGM battery.

Results:
First - what I do find interesting is even though the two batteries are the same physical size, the AGM has in total a higher amount of available ah. But being AGM, the usable amount of ah as compared to the lithium is a total ah rating of 16.8 ah less, you still have 3.6 more ah available. I would have expected more ah available for the lithium, but no doubt a significant portion of the internals of this antigravity battery is taken up by the BMS and 'jump start' system. I would bet another battery without a BMS or jump start would have even more available ah over the AGM - which is the whole point of lithium in the first place.

Anyway, ok so with the AGM, and my listed ah estimates, and safe battery DOD rates until recharging is necessary, you would have 0.81 days of use. For the lithium, you would have 1.48 days. This is 1.827 times the amount of use as compared to the AGM.

Discussion:
So, although I still think it is a very poor choice to switch the entire vehicle from AGM to lithium, for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts - for the genesis specific situation, I do see how the lithium might be beneficial for replacement of the aux battery. But thoughts still come to mind of temperatures, charge rates, amp input capacity, durability, vibration resistance, etc..... And given those particular items were a non issue (which I suspect they would in fact be a big issue) then I certainly would consider this especially as recharging when driving would be significantly faster, so if camping, one may only need to do a half hour drive to get the battery capacity up to maybe 70% compared to AGM which would require probably 4 hours or more.

Now just for a super quick tertiary option - full river also has in their line a deep cycle AGM group 24 85 ah (at 20 hr rate) battery that would, compared to the full river full throttle 60ah battery and using all the same specs as the above comparison, last 1.08 days which is 75% greater than the standard 64ah AGM battery. So - depending on cost and other factors, with the unknowns of temps and reliability in harsh vibrating environments, this might be even the better option as it increases your capacity quite a bit being AGM but retains all the AGM benefits.

Sorry did't mean this to turn into a research style comment haha.

 

[TwelveSoldier]

So would I lose some current if I relocate, via a long cable, the aux battery to the backseat of the gladiator... similar to the Genesis set up, but solely for convenience. Additionally, would it make any sense to change that Aux 14 at that point to a full size battery (not necessarily a 94R)?

I'm not sure if the Aux switches from the factory are operated off of the Aux, the main, or both? So since I'll be upgrading some lights to the Aux switches I don't want to get caught on the trail in a bad position. I'm mostly a lone wolf and typically do everything by myself, so a dead battery for me could be catastrophic.

 

[chorky]

So would I lose some current if I relocate, via a long cable, the aux battery to the backseat of the gladiator... similar to the Genesis set up, but solely for convenience. Additionally, would it make any sense to change that Aux 14 at that point to a full size battery (not necessarily a 94R)?

I'm not sure if the Aux switches from the factory are operated off of the Aux, the main, or both? So since I'll be upgrading some lights to the Aux switches I don't want to get caught on the trail in a bad position. I'm mostly a lone wolf and typically do everything by myself, so a dead battery for me could be catastrophic.

The factory aux battery is specifically and only for engine start/stop operation. That's it. Nothing else. The aux switches are not running off of that primarily. @ShadowsPapa can explain that to you better than I can since he has diagrams, or perhaps he can just post a link to the other threads that talk about the aux and ESS operation.


I absolutely would not go through the trouble to put that tincy little battery somewhere else. That is way excessive with zero benefit. Plus if you still want it to be functional then you have to figure ways to either extend the factory harness, or make splices and connections - don't do it.

The primary reason I went with the genesis system was to eliminate the tiny aux battery. Now - there are other ways to eliminate the battery that are much cheaper, but then the ESS would not work. I don't care about the ESS as I have maybe 2% of my drive time being in a situation where ESS would even actually function - so to me getting rid of that function is no big deal - and the side benefit of a aux battery with a battery combiner is a plus.

So just to be clear - if your intention is to keep the ESS functional, don't try and relocate that battery, thats WAY excessive with zero benefit. The genesis system takes it out of equation and your ESS will not function any longer.

I strongly suggest you do a search for the genesis system and do a search for ESS and auxiliary battery here in this forum and do much much much reading. You really need to better understand vehicle electrical before getting into anything relating to removing/relocating/eliminating batteries and factory wiring components.

Hooking up wires to the factory aux switches will be just fine. It won't cause you any problems - to be sure of that make sure you set them, through the radio, to be ignition controlled, meaning when the engine is off, the switch is also off.

 

[chorky]

Because inquiring minds want to know. Here is a response from Antigravity batteries.

In short

• Their batteries do NOT have internal heaters - thus will not function well if at all in cold environments
• their internal BMS system is primarily designed to protect the battery from over discharge and over voltage
  • they still advise to use a lithium specific charger

So it is clear that putting one of these directly into your vehicle is bad news and may not operate correctly as they are not designed to accept AGM charge methods nor operate in cold environments. So for all the hype, they are a no go for a underhood direct replacement despite their advertisement.



Quoted directly from the email received in return:
”it does NOT have an internal heater. If being used on a daily basis it likely shouldn't be an issue as it would normally take an extended duration to get the battery to the point of freezing..having a larger capacity can also help in cases like this. But if it is sitting for multiple days without use it may be advisable to acquire a battery blanket or heater to help warm the battery before use depending on how extreme the temps are. We currently rate these battery models at 8+ years, AGM is actually still a lead/acid composition and the chargers for AGM or other lead/acid models are going to vary in regards to the bulk/absorption as well as the float/maintain stages, some will also have desulfation modes which is why you specifically want to use a lithium charger. The batteries do have a BMS but they are designed to protect in emergencies against over discharge and over voltage, not as a corrective measure for using the wrong charger. For Winch use you'd also want to opt for larger capacity options for depth of overall reserve and just still to the general guidelines in ensure the vehicle is running simultaneously and the duration is not excessive. Hopefully that helps answer your questions and clarify but please let us know if there is anything else we can assist you with.”


I find it very interesting that they advertise these as a direct replacement but then SPECIFICALLY state they are NOT suitable for AGM style charges - which is EXACTLY what the Gladiator system does being it engineered specifically for an AGM style battery(ies)

 

[TwelveSoldier]

Finding a decent Aux 14 is challenging as well. First the kid at the auto parts store told me I have an Aux 12 (I haven't opened the Aux area to check), but everything I've read said Aux 14. So then he pointed me to the motorcycle batteries that had 2 different size 14's. Is it in fact just a motorcycle battery? In either case I wanted the same brand batteries. FullRiver doesn't have an Aux 14 and the 94R is next to impossible to find right now. Northstar is basically gone, and Odyssey seems like it's more expensive than it's worth. Any recommendations of brands? Heck Napa seems to be good at this point or Interstate.

 

[Dougstdig]

Umm……….use a deep cycle

I’m looking at an Anker LI 767.

 

[chorky]

My recommendation is to get the Genesis and get rid of that little factory aux. I have noting good to say about it as I've seen so many people with issues - and those without issues still seem to have to replace them every other year. If it wasn't such a pain to get to I wouldn't be so against it but it's a terrible design IMO - not that there's man other choices.

 

[Mr._Bill]

Finding a decent Aux 14 is challenging as well. First the kid at the auto parts store told me I have an Aux 12 (I haven't opened the Aux area to check), but everything I've read said Aux 14. So then he pointed me to the motorcycle batteries that had 2 different size 14's. Is it in fact just a motorcycle battery? In either case I wanted the same brand batteries. FullRiver doesn't have an Aux 14 and the 94R is next to impossible to find right now. Northstar is basically gone, and Odyssey seems like it's more expensive than it's worth. Any recommendations of brands? Heck Napa seems to be good at this point or Interstate.

You can get a Deka Aux14 from Auto Barn for about $110 shipped to you. The Aux12 and Aux14 batteries are almost identical. The main difference is capacity. The CCA is 155 for the Aux12 and 200 for the Aux14.

 

[chorky]

Or a cheaper method is one of the couple ways to eliminate the aux and keep the large group 31 starting battery.

It really depends on what your objective is. Kinda gotta get that sorted out first before looking at options to consider.

I didnt mean to oush the genesis earlier. Its expensive and certainly not for everyone. I just really dont like the factory aux in the location it is in.

 

[AEV-Bear]

Hey everyone. I'm new here (first post) I just picked up a 2021 JT-370. I had a Land Rover for 15 years prior and had it all built out, including a dual battery kit. I'm trying to plan my build and need a dual battery again. I'm trying to decide between the genesis kit which is similar to my old kit or the Renogy kit like Dan Grec.
after reading this whole thread I'm a little confused about the Genesis. I don't care about the ESS I turn it off all the time. But I do care about a fault code or light coming on. I already have one about my TPMS sensors and it drives me nuts. Does the Genesis kit cause a fault code or light to come on?
also It looks like the Renogy kit is a lot cheaper about $800 plus the cables and fuses. The genesis kit is about $1200 with the two batteries.
Im a big fan of not touching the factory battery set up and since my winch, lights and my compressor will be connected to the factory battery all I would need to run off the house battery would be my fridge, some small led lights and some charge ports.

 

[chorky]

Hey everyone. I'm new here (first post) I just picked up a 2021 JT-370. I had a Land Rover for 15 years prior and had it all built out, including a dual battery kit. I'm trying to plan my build and need a dual battery again. I'm trying to decide between the genesis kit which is similar to my old kit or the Renogy kit like Dan Grec.
after reading this whole thread I'm a little confused about the Genesis. I don't care about the ESS I turn it off all the time. But I do care about a fault code or light coming on. I already have one about my TPMS sensors and it drives me nuts. Does the Genesis kit cause a fault code or light to come on?
also It looks like the Renogy kit is a lot cheaper about $800 plus the cables and fuses. The genesis kit is about $1200 with the two batteries.
Im a big fan of not touching the factory battery set up and since my winch, lights and my compressor will be connected to the factory battery all I would need to run off the house battery would be my fridge, some small led lights and some charge ports.

done correctly the genesis kit should not trigger any fault codes. My ESS still functions although I prefer to turn it off.

For me personally the genesis kit is desired as a base situation because my primary concern was removing the factory aux battery. Having the aux battery in the genesis system was a bonus. I live in a cold environment and most the time just do one night trips. So AGM batteries work for that. Although I will expand to lithium capability with a modular setup for the few times I do go on longer trips.

So knowing what you want and knowing what you need and your actual realistic use case is important before deciding on what direction to go.

based on your initial comment of not wanting to mess with the factory battery setup, and your described use case I would think lithium with a dc/dc charger might be a better way to go so long as you are not in a cold climate. By cold I mean 9 months of winter with temps below freezing and dipping to -20

 

[AEV-Bear]

done correctly the genesis kit should not trigger any fault codes. My ESS still functions although I prefer to turn it off.

For me personally the genesis kit is desired as a base situation because my primary concern was removing the factory aux battery. Having the aux battery in the genesis system was a bonus. I live in a cold environment and most the time just do one night trips. So AGM batteries work for that. Although I will expand to lithium capability with a modular setup for the few times I do go on longer trips.

So knowing what you want and knowing what you need and your actual realistic use case is important before deciding on what direction to go.

based on your initial comment of not wanting to mess with the factory battery setup, and your described use case I would think lithium with a dc/dc charger might be a better way to go so long as you are not in a cold climate. By cold I mean 9 months of winter with temps below freezing and dipping to -20

I’m in California where we consider “cold” below 60 degrees.

 

[Beemer533]

Hey everyone. I'm new here (first post) I just picked up a 2021 JT-370. I had a Land Rover for 15 years prior and had it all built out, including a dual battery kit. I'm trying to plan my build and need a dual battery again. I'm trying to decide between the genesis kit which is similar to my old kit or the Renogy kit like Dan Grec.
after reading this whole thread I'm a little confused about the Genesis. I don't care about the ESS I turn it off all the time. But I do care about a fault code or light coming on. I already have one about my TPMS sensors and it drives me nuts. Does the Genesis kit cause a fault code or light to come on?
also It looks like the Renogy kit is a lot cheaper about $800 plus the cables and fuses. The genesis kit is about $1200 with the two batteries.
Im a big fan of not touching the factory battery set up and since my winch, lights and my compressor will be connected to the factory battery all I would need to run off the house battery would be my fridge, some small led lights and some charge ports.

I put in a 40ah lifepo4 "house" battery last year with a renogy dcc50s charger https://www.renogy.com/dcc50s-12v-50a-dc-dc-on-board-battery-charger-with-mppt/

and their 175 watt flexible solar panel for my trip out west. It was mainly to run my dometic fridge and some Camp lights.

It works very well and I have been really pleased with the setup. I did hook it up to the jeep so it would charge while I'm driving and when parked the solar charges both batteries.

All that being said I've had quite a bit of trouble with my oem batteries dying and I ended up getting the Genesis system (gen 3) to replace them recently.
It's not cheap, but I'm happy to be rid of the stock battery setup.

The other issue this solved for me is that I can use accessories hooked up to my spod (lights, compressor, etc) without fear of not being able to start the jeep as that I hooked up to the Genesis aux battery, not the starting battery like with the stock setup.

It's probably overkill, and there are other ways to go, but I'm really happy with the setup now.

I have ess disabled with my tazer and I have no warning lights at all on the dash.

If you use ESS with the Genesis system, my understanding is that after 6 stop/starts it will throw an error, but that goes away when you restart the truck.

I could care less about ess, so it's not a problem for me at least.

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