Genesis batteries - lets do some math

[chorky]

I spoke with the Rep for Antigravity Batteries, they are plug and play. They have protections already built in which are designed specifically to allow OEM electrical systems charge their batteries. I have no need for a winch, ran my last Warn Zeon for 4 years and never used it, not even once... I am not adding one to my current build. Either Ill figure a way through or someone else in the group will have a winch.

Though I did not know the exact SOC of the battery during my trips, I do know it never dropped below 10V as I have a voltage readout installed where I ran the fridge connector in the rear.

so your saying the reps say antigravity batteries are designed to charge and function in the OEM system? Do they hold the same voltage at the same times then? I think there are a couple of computer systems that are pretty sensitive to the programed AGM voltages. That would be a interesting solution if it holds up though. Post up some info if you go that route!

yeah I am totally aware you can run for a weekend. Lots of folks do it just fine. But for me that is high risk. Often times I solo trips and am hours and hours away from the nearest development. A good example is last summer a friend of mine got a flat and needed a tow back to where they live which was probably 4 hours on the highway. But there wasnt a tow within 2 hours. I had to tow my TJ just 10 miles outside of the town I live in because a local shop forgot to put gear oil back in the diff. Well my insurance, USAA (which is suposed to include roadside towing) wanted me to pay 4K to dispatch a tow truck from 3 hours away just to tow me 10 miles back to town……. Needles to say, being accurate to not have a ‘oops’ is pretty big for me being apparently so far out in the woods.

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[ajkaz]

so your saying the reps say antigravity batteries are designed to charge and function in the OEM system? Do they hold the same voltage at the same times then? I think there are a couple of computer systems that are pretty sensitive to the programed AGM voltages. That would be a interesting solution if it holds up though. Post up some info if you go that route!

yeah I am totally aware you can run for a weekend. Lots of folks do it just fine. But for me that is high risk. Often times I solo trips and am hours and hours away from the nearest development. A good example is last summer a friend of mine got a flat and needed a tow back to where they live which was probably 4 hours on the highway. But there wasnt a tow within 2 hours. I had to tow my TJ just 10 miles outside of the town I live in because a local shop forgot to put gear oil back in the diff. Well my insurance, USAA (which is suposed to include roadside towing) wanted me to pay 4K to dispatch a tow truck from 3 hours away just to tow me 10 miles back to town……. Needles to say, being accurate to not have a ‘oops’ is pretty big for me being apparently so far out in the woods.

Yes it also states this on the Antigravity website as well. https://antigravitybatteries.com/help-center/faq/lithium-starter-batteries/#electrical-charging He did say that you cannot have a lithium and a lead acid/agm in the same circuit. The Lithium will apparently slowly discharge into the lead acid/agm.

I get it, I wouldnt want to be stuck either. I did always carry a small jumpstart pack just in case I pushed it a little to hard.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I spoke with the Rep for Antigravity Batteries, they are plug and play. They have protections already built in which are designed specifically to allow OEM electrical systems charge their batteries. I have no need for a winch, ran my last Warn Zeon for 4 years and never used it, not even once... I am not adding one to my current build. Either Ill figure a way through or someone else in the group will have a winch.

Though I did not know the exact SOC of the battery during my trips, I do know it never dropped below 10V as I have a voltage readout installed where I ran the fridge connector in the rear.

Then they aren't just plain batteries - they have built in electronics that modify the charging currents and voltages before it actually gets TO the battery. Even my AGM charger has warnings about certain lithium batteries - saying never to use it on certain chemistry.

He did say that you cannot have a lithium and a lead acid/agm in the same circuit. The Lithium will apparently slowly discharge into the lead acid/agm.

That's true only if the lithium battery has a higher voltage than the AGM battery. And that's true of ANY batteries. If you mix batteries and one has a higher voltage than the other, one will discharge into the other until they reach an equilibrium. (normally in between the starting voltages)

So what he's saying is that the lithium battery, fully charged, will always have a higher voltage than the AGM batter when it's fully charged? That could be interesting since the truck is going to expect the battery to act a certain way and the IBS detect the state of charge based on current voltage, current in, current out, battery temperature and internal resistance, etc.
So unless the electronics in the top of their batteries mimic an AGM battery as far as resistance, fully charged voltage and so on, it could be interesting.

 

[ajkaz]

Then they aren't just plain batteries - they have built in electronics that modify the charging currents and voltages before it actually gets TO the battery. Even my AGM charger has warnings about certain lithium batteries - saying never to use it on certain chemistry.


That's true only if the lithium battery has a higher voltage than the AGM battery. And that's true of ANY batteries. If you mix batteries and one has a higher voltage than the other, one will discharge into the other until they reach an equilibrium. (normally in between the starting voltages)

So what he's saying is that the lithium battery, fully charged, will always have a higher voltage than the AGM batter when it's fully charged? That could be interesting since the truck is going to expect the battery to act a certain way and the IBS detect the state of charge based on current voltage, current in, current out, battery temperature and internal resistance, etc.
So unless the electronics in the top of their batteries mimic an AGM battery as far as resistance, fully charged voltage and so on, it could be interesting.

Yes they have built in electronics to handle charging as well as a few other safety features. The lithium battery has a slightly higher voltage, he said it would be dead in a few weeks if the vehicle was not run, but otherwise would also be in a constant state of discharge.

Yes the lithium battery will have a voltage of 12.8.

Based on their dimensions I can fit the 80AH H7 battery, would it be worth it to also replace the Aux battery with a small lithium that fits in that cavity? Otherwise Ill be eliminating it.

Basically the 80AH lithium battery is the same cost as the Genesis kit, I'll let someone else do the math on usable capacity, but it seems equal or better. You'd still need to buy a second battery and do all the work with the Genesis kit which is at least another $500.

 

[chorky]

Yes they have built in electronics to handle charging as well as a few other safety features. The lithium battery has a slightly higher voltage, he said it would be dead in a few weeks if the vehicle was not run, but otherwise would also be in a constant state of discharge.

Yes the lithium battery will have a voltage of 12.8.

Based on their dimensions I can fit the 80AH H7 battery, would it be worth it to also replace the Aux battery with a small lithium that fits in that cavity? Otherwise Ill be eliminating it.

Basically the 80AH lithium battery is the same cost as the Genesis kit, I'll let someone else do the math on usable capacity, but it seems equal or better. You'd still need to buy a second battery and do all the work with the Genesis kit which is at least another $500.

hmm. That seems like a big risk to me. Because they are different chemistries still. I would want assurances that the vehicle charging system can charge lithium appropriately. I really dont see how a lithium battery can be modified to accept AGM style charging??

but I went to their site last night and right off the bat saw some battery for like $2,000. Id be curious what a smaller one runs.

So to clarify your last paragraph, are you suggesting swapping the main battery out in favor of a 80ah lithium and then using that to power all your stuff? If you drain that lithium by 80% DOD I highly doubt you would get the gladiator to start. using the same battery as your primary starting battery and deep cycling that down to 30% SOC or less when camping is a HUGE risk….

 

[ajkaz]

hmm. That seems like a big risk to me. Because they are different chemistries still. I would want assurances that the vehicle charging system can charge lithium appropriately. I really dont see how a lithium battery can be modified to accept AGM style charging??

but I went to their site last night and right off the bat saw some battery for like $2,000. Id be curious what a smaller one runs.

So to clarify your last paragraph, are you suggesting swapping the main battery out in favor of a 80ah lithium and then using that to power all your stuff? If you drain that lithium by 80% DOD I highly doubt you would get the gladiator to start. using the same battery as your primary starting battery and deep cycling that down to 30% SOC or less when camping is a HUGE risk….

Yes thats correct, the battery has built in charging circuitry that converts the incoming power to a usable charge for the lithium cells. Also it prevents overcharging as well.

The 80AH battery im looking at definitely isnt cheap, its $1199.

They have a built in jump start function as well, its called ReStart:
" Never stranded again… Our amazing RE-START Technology is the first battery ever to offer Wireless Remote-activated built-in Jump Starting. (Can also be activated manually by pressing Restart button on top of battery.) So it won’t allow you to get stranded with a dead battery! For example if you left your lights on the intelligent Battery Management System (BMS) in the battery would put itself to sleep before being drained dead, yet save just enough energy to start your vehicle again and get you out of that emergency. And with our WIRELESS REMOTE KEYFOB you can activate the Jump-Starting without ever opening the hood of the car. Simply press the Keyfob Button, start your car and drive away. "

Also the battery has an app with a bluetooth connection, you can pull up lots of info like SOC. Pretty nifty.

I'm not too worried about the risk as I've been running their lithium battery in my dual sport for years, with no issues at all. Also they are 30 mins from my house.

I carry this small battery to jumpstart others (or myself) as I dont like jumping people off the Glads battery. This tiny thing has turned over many ice cold engines at camp, this is all it takes to get out of a bind.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/micro-starts/sport/

 

[chorky]

Yes thats correct, the battery has built in charging circuitry that converts the incoming power to a usable charge for the lithium cells. Also it prevents overcharging as well.

The 80AH battery im looking at definitely isnt cheap, its $1199.

They have a built in jump start function as well, its called ReStart:
" Never stranded again… Our amazing RE-START Technology is the first battery ever to offer Wireless Remote-activated built-in Jump Starting. (Can also be activated manually by pressing Restart button on top of battery.) So it won’t allow you to get stranded with a dead battery! For example if you left your lights on the intelligent Battery Management System (BMS) in the battery would put itself to sleep before being drained dead, yet save just enough energy to start your vehicle again and get you out of that emergency. And with our WIRELESS REMOTE KEYFOB you can activate the Jump-Starting without ever opening the hood of the car. Simply press the Keyfob Button, start your car and drive away. "

Also the battery has an app with a bluetooth connection, you can pull up lots of info like SOC. Pretty nifty.

I'm not too worried about the risk as I've been running their lithium battery in my dual sport for years, with no issues at all. Also they are 30 mins from my house.

I carry this small battery to jumpstart others (or myself) as I dont like jumping people off the Glads battery. This tiny thing has turned over many ice cold engines at camp, this is all it takes to get out of a bind.
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/micro-starts/sport/

hmm. That seems like some awfully complicated Internals. How does it do with 30 to -20 degree temps

at 80 ah it seems to have effectively double the usable ah as one of the full river batteries of the genesis system. And if linked then its about the same.

but i heavily doubt a 70% dod single lithium battery is gonna start the gladiator. It would be cool to see a video of that and some specs. I do see the future potential though. But not at that cost for just one battery.

 

[ajkaz]

hmm. That seems like some awfully complicated Internals. How does it do with 30 to -20 degree temps

at 80 ah it seems to have effectively double the usable ah as one of the full river batteries of the genesis system. And if linked then its about the same.

but i heavily doubt a 70% dod single lithium battery is gonna start the gladiator. It would be cool to see a video of that and some specs. I do see the future potential though. But not at that cost for just one battery.

The same battery type in my dual sport has started the bike and run all accessories in the low teens and 20's many times. Haven't tried it any colder. I have however forgot my ignition on and headlight on many times. The battery has a built in low voltage cut off. Its seems to be at about 80% DOD. Once this is triggered the battery internally disconnects. You press the Restart button on the battery, it reconnects and you start the bike no problem. My AGM left me doing push starts way to many times.....

Looking at the dishcharge rates, voltage is high enough to start the engine a little beyond 80% DOD, seems around 83%-85% you'll begin to see appreciable voltage drop. The Lifepo4 Lithium curve is nothing like lead acid, check it out. Pretty interesting.

 

[CrazyCooter]

It’s an automatic generator of sorts very quiet limited exhaust. Designed for RVs, Boats and remote sensor/data collection that can’t afford to rely on solar. I don’t know if anyone makes one smaller than EFOY yet. You would need to order the fuel pods I believe but they last along time of constant use. The also sell different sizes.



https://www.my-efoy.com/en/efoy-fuell-cells/how-it-works/

I was wondering when the fuel cells were going to catch on and become affordable for us. I started seeing them on mountaintop repeater sites about 25 years ago, but never civilian stuff. $3500 for a 40wh unit is still pretty steep!

 

[CrazyCooter]

The same battery type in my dual sport has started the bike and run all accessories in the low teens and 20's many times. Haven't tried it any colder. I have however forgot my ignition on and headlight on many times. The battery has a built in low voltage cut off. Its seems to be at about 80% DOD. Once this is triggered the battery internally disconnects. You press the Restart button on the battery, it reconnects and you start the bike no problem. My AGM left me doing push starts way to many times.....

Looking at the dishcharge rates, voltage is high enough to start the engine a little beyond 80% DOD, seems around 83%-85% you'll begin to see appreciable voltage drop. The Lifepo4 Lithium curve is nothing like lead acid, check it out. Pretty interesting.

Knowing my starting battery is on it's way out, I have been researching the AntiGravity 80AH replacement. I have not reached out to them yet, but I know that chemistry does not like to be charged when over 120°, will not charge below 32°, and has a short life when stored above 100°........Where does that really leave us for an underhood application when I live where is goes below freezing and over 115° ambient? The smart alternator charging profile is also a concern.

I have had horrible luck with the Shorai powersports LIfePO4 batteries, but I can't necessarily hold that against the Antigravity version.

I'm all for spending $1200 vs $300 if it's an upgrade that will last.

 

[CrazyCooter]

hmm. That seems like some awfully complicated Internals. How does it do with 30 to -20 degree temps

at 80 ah it seems to have effectively double the usable ah as one of the full river batteries of the genesis system. And if linked then its about the same.

but i heavily doubt a 70% dod single lithium battery is gonna start the gladiator. It would be cool to see a video of that and some specs. I do see the future potential though. But not at that cost for just one battery.

Why not? I start cars in the shop all the time with a 4ah lithium jump starter. Lithium voltage doesn't sag like FLA batteries.

 

[Mr._Bill]

Knowing my starting battery is on it's way out, I have been researching the AntiGravity 80AH replacement. I have not reached out to them yet, but I know that chemistry does not like to be charged when over 120°, will not charge below 32°, and has a short life when stored above 100°........Where does that really leave us for an underhood application when I live where is goes below freezing and over 115° ambient? The smart alternator charging profile is also a concern.

I have had horrible luck with the Shorai powersports LIfePO4 batteries, but I can't necessarily hold that against the Antigravity version.

I'm all for spending $1200 vs $300 if it's an upgrade that will last.

It stays too hot under the hood, or it gets too cold when parked. Lithium batteries are not very practical or cost effective in the JT/JL. The AGM battery does well for this use case, but only has a usable life of about three years. I put in a ACDelco 94R that I got from Amazon for $150 (currently $205), when my main battery needed replaced last fall.
ACDelco Gold 94RAGM 36 Month Warranty AGM BCI Group 94R Battery https://a.co/d/2CuRpiY

 

[chorky]

Knowing my starting battery is on it's way out, I have been researching the AntiGravity 80AH replacement. I have not reached out to them yet, but I know that chemistry does not like to be charged when over 120°, will not charge below 32°, and has a short life when stored above 100°........Where does that really leave us for an underhood application when I live where is goes below freezing and over 115° ambient? The smart alternator charging profile is also a concern.

I have had horrible luck with the Shorai powersports LIfePO4 batteries, but I can't necessarily hold that against the Antigravity version.

I'm all for spending $1200 vs $300 if it's an upgrade that will last.

i really dont think lithium is a food option for under the hood. Especially those of use with cold temps. Even with heaters. just before christmas it was literally below -10 for 5 days straight. I cannot see any way that lithium would withstand that. Maybe in the future with better tech. But I also dont think spending 1200 on a risk like that is worth it.
Now sticking lithium in the bed or cab when camping thats fine. But leaving it for extended periods imo is asking for trouble. But I could be wrong

It stays too hot under the hood, or it gets too cold when parked. Lithium batteries are not very practical or cost effective in the JT/JL. The AGM battery does well for this use case, but only has a usable life of about three years. I put in a ACDelco 94R that I got from Amazon for $150 (currently $205), when my main battery needed replaced last fall.
ACDelco Gold 94RAGM 36 Month Warranty AGM BCI Group 94R Battery https://a.co/d/2CuRpiY

I am hoping these batteries I just got last at least 3 years. The last 3 optimas I had in my little TJ barely made it through 2 years…..but, the Napa or oreily AGM batteries I put in the OBS power stroke lasted about 6 years and I was not super easy on that truck. I think Optima quality just went down the sink. We will see how these chinese made full throttle ones last. even if I only get 2 years out of them they still are cheaper to replace than the Optimas.

 

[CrazyCooter]

i really dont think lithium is a food option for under the hood. Especially those of use with cold temps. Even with heaters. just before christmas it was literally below -10 for 5 days straight. I cannot see any way that lithium would withstand that. Maybe in the future with better tech. But I also dont think spending 1200 on a risk like that is worth it.
Now sticking lithium in the bed or cab when camping thats fine. But leaving it for extended periods imo is asking for trouble. But I could be wrong

I don't think the freezing temps under the hood are that big of a deal because the underhood temps will warm it up unless the vehicle is only used for short trips. Cold temps don't damage becuase I would assume the BMS will stop the charging till it's warm enough to safely accept a charge. I'm more concerned about the heat especially with my diesel and hot climates. If it was an unconditional non-prorate warranty. I'd be willing to try one.

I am hoping these batteries I just got last at least 3 years. The last 3 optimas I had in my little TJ barely made it through 2 years…..but, the Napa or oreily AGM batteries I put in the OBS power stroke lasted about 6 years and I was not super easy on that truck. I think Optima quality just went down the sink. We will see how these chinese made full throttle ones last. even if I only get 2 years out of them they still are cheaper to replace than the Optimas.

Optimas are absolute garbage and old skool tech. Waste of space vs footprint vs AH capacity.....That 6pack design is a waste. I think that quality took a dive when Johnson Controls acquired them. There are better AGM's out there. NAPA and Oreilley's in our area are selling East Penn AGM batteries as the premium choice and I have sold tons of them and they are in all of my vehicles currenty except the JT.

 

[TwelveSoldier]

Is there a lithium replacement to do both the auxiliary and the main battery? I'd like to do the delete of the aux, but think it's best to keep both for the ECU and other components to keep their functionality. I seen where someone did the antigravity in their Jeeps and their Ferrari, but I'm sure loosing their Jeep probably wouldn't hurt their pockets as bad as mine.

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