Hmm, this is an interesting solution. No More Dry Starts

[Gezer]

If you remember distributors you probably remember toothpaste in metal tubes. I am so old. Why do YouTubers take 10 or 15 minutes to get 2 minutes of info across. I haven’t had that level of attention span for years. What was the subject again?

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[PW45]

I am so old I remember using toilet paper rolls for oil filters many many years ago

wow my first car a 1966 Mercury had a weird can off the side in the engine. Opened it up and sure enough, roll of TP

 

[JTpanelsOFF]

Paging anyone who has experience w/ the valvetrain on our engines. Would this work long term? Negatives?

Looks like a great design. Very innovative

 

[Reddog]

If you remember distributors you probably remember toothpaste in metal tubes. I am so old. Why do YouTubers take 10 or 15 minutes to get 2 minutes of info across. I haven’t had that level of attention span for years. What was the subject again?

Well I'm old enough to remember $19.9 gas. So I must not be THAT old cause I can still remember it I bought a used one owner 55 Chev 2dr hdtp as first car. It had a toilet paper oil filter on it. The guy claimed he had them on all his rigs and never changed the oil. The engine was a six cylinder and when I took it out to put a 327 FI engine in it, the inside of the old motor looked like where "oil goes to die". Completely packed with sludge. Now we are debating a very expensive fix to a problem no one has any evidence to support. The inventors' claims are not evidence, they are marketing statements unless he has qualitive and quanitive data to support them. I still don't see any verified evidence that there is a real actual problem with the 3.6L oiling. Why is this proven engine design any different from other like designed engines? Just because a person has had some problems with the engine does not mean they were caused by this purported oil drain-back. I am not skeptical of his claims or his product necessarily, only that I have yet to see a pattern of problems associated with the issue. If people believe there is a problem, or feel this product benefits their engine, then buy it. I have had all manner of high performance Chev engines over my lifetime, everything from 265 cu in on up to LS3's and 427's set up to drag race. Some were wet sump and some were dry. Some were supercharged. Never had a failure due to oil issues or lack of oil supply at startup. So this just seems to me to be one of those good idea products looking for a problem. Anyway, boy, wish they still made real hi-octane fuel!

 

[Darel]

I can't imagine the mess if there's a check valve in that adapter keeping everything above it full.

Also if this oil is trapped in the filter, you still need that "push" from the oil pump to send that trapped oil to the valves so they're waiting just as long for the pump to build pressure, to see any oil anyway.

Total red herring.

 

[willys 41]

Darel Needs to take an empty class and fill it to the top with water
Now take a full glass of water and fill it to the top
Which one overflow faster
Same principle
As soon as you shut off the 3.6 the factory oil filter housing will start draining all the oil out leaving it full of air and that is why you get the rattle on start up
The Baxter system has a check valve to hold the oil up in the filter plus the screw oil filter also has an anti drain back valving
If you follow the Baxter instruction on changing the oil filer you will not even spill a drop of oil
I have changed mine 4 time and have never spilled one drop of oil
Most older motors the filters where mounted on the bottom of the motor and usually vertical keeping them full of oil like a glass of water sitting upright
I prefer to NOT listen to the valve train rattle every time I start my jeep and that is why I have the Baxter on both my 2020 WILLYS AND 2018 Rubicon

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Odd because I have never once heard a valve train rattle on start-up on any 3.6 I've ever owned. Just doesn't happen.

The 3.6 holds oil in the filter housing until you release the cap, then oil drains back to the pan. That's why they always say remove the filter housing cap first to allow oil to drain back into the pan before putting the pan drain plug back in.
anyone who does the pan drain, then puts the drain plug back in, THEN changes the filter, is dropping old oil back into the pan when the cap is pulled.

These do not drain the filter housing back each time you shut them down.
Anyone suggesting otherwise isn't reading the books on these oiling systems. People pull the cap and look in and see an empty filter area and assume, gee, these drain oil when you shut them off. They drain oil when you pull that cap making you think it's empty.

The Baxter people are basing their marketing on false assumptions - likely they pulled the cap and found the housing wasn't 'full of oil' and assumed. So it's indeed a solution looking for a problem.
Snake oil.

Bottom line - these do not empty that filter housing at shut-down. There's a reason books, PDF files, and true Pentastar experts say pull the cap first, let the oil drain out of the filter housing, then drain the oil from the pan - only put the plug back in after the filter housing has drained back into the pan. Why would that be needed if these drained back at shutdown?


Here's a current 2023 assessment -

the diesel is very similar - this is from the book.......

For the gasser (proving there's no drainback on shutdown)- the first is a technical document explanation, proving oi is held in the filter cavity until you pull that cap -

Mine has oil pressure almost instantly after start-up. There's never any valve clatter or rattle on any of the several 3.6s we've owned.
There are engineering drawings out there showing these don't drain back on shutdown.
The reason people are tricked into thinking they do is marketing hype, and the fact that once you pull that cap, the oil does drain back.
This has also been discussed elsewhere here and in other Jeep forums.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

As soon as you shut off the 3.6 the factory oil filter housing will start draining all the oil out leaving it full of air and that is why you get the rattle on start up

Here's the true bottom line on that - that's very wrong.
It only drains if you remove the cap.
Otherwise oil is held in the filter housing.
Since you can't look inside without removing the cap, you can't see that it's full of oil when off, but when you remove the cap, the oil drains out so you assume it's sitting there empty.
Technical documents from Jeep and others prove that concept of empty filters to be incorrect, just plain wrong.
Most of us don't get any rattles......... I never had. There will always be a tiny second or two as the pressure is gone out of the lash adjusters - just like ANY gas engine with hydraulic lifters, they rely on constant oil pressure to keep them adjusted and all lash removed.
It's one reason I prime oil systems and actually literally soak lifters in oil and pump the plunger on each lifter to get some oil into them when I rebuild engines.
There can be a tiny lifter (or lash adjuster in this case) clatter due to the lash adjusters bleeding down from the valve spring pressure pushing back on them, but it's not due to an empty filter housing.
Myth busted.

 

[willys 41]

2020 willys brand new at start up rattle
After Baxter NO rattle
2018 47k before Baxter rattle
After Baxter NO rattle

 

[ATL_Rubi]

No rattles on my 23 but get a random split second screech/squeal intermittently

 

[Mad Mac]

Is the Stop/Start a dry start?
Is it merely a gimmick for better fleet economy for the EPA
at the expense of more dry starts?

 

[smlobx]

Is the Stop/Start a dry start?
Is it merely a gimmick for better fleet economy for the EPA
at the expense of more dry starts?

The ESS system will have no effect on the oil pressure system as it’s only for a few seconds or so and the engine has to be up to operating temps and pressures for it to operate.

 

[Tech Tim]

I fail to understand how it's any different on the 3.6 from almost any other engine......... didn't need to watch the video........ may later but really, 13 minutes?
Why would the 3.6 be different? (especially since they come factory with a high volume pump)
And the 2nd gen oil filter drains back when you pull it apart, not when you shut the engine off if I understand their oil system documentation correctly.

A solution looking for a problem?

The 3.6 isn't different than other engines. Many other engines also do not have an anti-drain back system. Instead they rely on a high volume oil pump to flood the engine with oil within seconds of starting. For the Pentastar 3.6, it takes about 3.5 seconds for the engine to get up to operating pressure and volume.


Check out this presentation, it covers the 3.6 lubrication path in more depth that any other that I could find:

The Baxter people are basing their marketing on false assumptions - likely they pulled the cap and found the housing wasn't 'full of oil' and assumed. So it's indeed a solution looking for a problem.
Snake oil.

The only false assumption is yours.

Kevin Baxter is an old-school mechanic and is very familiar with the oiling issues in various engines. To test and prove the drain down issue, he drilled a hole into the oil filter cap, installed a camera, sealed it all back up and then watched the oil drain back down after ~35 minutes.

Baxters has been building oil filter adapters for other vehicles for many years, this 3.6 Jeep unit is only their latest in their line of oil filter adapters. iirc, this 3.6 Pentastar unit has been in development and testing for around 4 years.

Bottom line - these do not empty that filter housing at shut-down. There's a reason books, PDF files, and true Pentastar experts say pull the cap first, let the oil drain out of the filter housing, then drain the oil from the pan - only put the plug back in after the filter housing has drained back into the pan. Why would that be needed if these drained back at shutdown?

Simply put, there is not an anti-drain back valve in the 3.6 or in its filter.

Show me a picture of the anti-drain back valve or find one in a parts diagram or parts list and I will be happy to eat crow and retract those words.

 

[willys 41]

Let the 3.6 sit over night
Remove the oil filter
You will not see oil dripping off the filter
What you will see is a almost dry filter

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Once you pull the cap, the oil drains out.
If yours is dry, you likely have a malfunctioning part.
Millions of these on the road and only a very few talk of any "rattle". I've owned several, light goes out real fast, no rattle.
If if there were, you aren't talking damaging anything. It's just annoying to some and with no engine building experience, they believe it to be a problem.
sometimes someone comes along and finds "proof" of a problem that isn't one.
Consensus out there is - it's a solution looking for a problem. If it makes you feel good to not have any rattle, fine, but most of us have quiet engines, no start-up rattle, and if it did, big deal because it's not problematic.

As far as ESS starts - that's not even part of any conversation because the time it's off is very limited, the bearings are new materials with new coatings and handle it perfectly well.

Kevin Baxter is an old-school mechanic and is very familiar with the oiling issues in various engines.

perceived oiling issues is more correct. If it was an issue, then there'd be failures way beyond what anyone is seeing.

I know about that website. This is from that site -

I don't get the rattle bit - my wife's Grand Cherokees typically sat for anywhere from 3 to 14 days between being driven. I was often in the garage working on something when she came out to start her jeep and go somewhere - totally quiet from the time the thing fired. No rattles. Oil light was never on beyond the first revolution or two of the crank. Went out fast.

Buy whatever you want - but it's a "fix" for people who don't get what's going on inside these and assume any noise for even a second is a disaster. Any time the oil is changed it's a whole lot worse than going out in the morning and starting it with that housing still having oil in it. (unless that valve is bad or there are other issues)
It's just a non-issue. People spending money on something someone tells them they need because their engine has a poor design.
You can pretty safely bet it's not going to make a difference at the end of life on the engine.

I've already posted FCA tech info talking about how when you remove the cap, it releases oil from the filter housing, and another where it says to remove the cap first to allow oil to drain from the filter housing.

To hear Baxter and their fans talking, all of our engines are destined to rattle to death, and self-destruct, or at least have a lot shorter live spans without such a product. And yet - how many are out there with over 100,000 miles?

I also wonder- those hearing a rattle - exactly what oil is being used?

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