Why no max tow with the manual transmission?

[Jim7983]

There it is. That's why it isn't working. Depressing of the clutch starts the engine. And the take-up is so quick when the clutch is released, it wouldn't give enough time to start the engine and it would likely stall frequently.

Awesome! So assume shifting to Neutral with Brake on is Trigger to shutdown engine?

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[foo.c]

I'd rather tool around in a manual Spark than an automatic( ) Corvette.

The old autos, yeah wouldn't own one. The new DCT is very good, and so much easier to drive at the limit and get more out of the car, for me anyways.

 

[dcmdon]

That brings up a question I have thought about for many of my years of driving manual transmission equipped vehicles -
When you pull up to a stop light - do you:

Shift to neutral, let out the clutch
or
Shift it to first and hold the clutch in

And why.

With my aging knees, hips and arthritis, I find myself more often shifting to neutral and letting out the clutch. But I temper that decision with my observation about the light - is it a stale red about to turn green, or did it JUST turn red?

I also tend to shift to neutral and let out the clutch at times because I know that holding the clutch in means more pressure and wear in the release bearing and also on the pilot bearing because the input shaft is stopped while the crankshaft keeps spinning. I did a lot of clutch jobs in my work where the release bearing was totally toast - in fact, often that was shot but the clutch was still ok. Similar for pilot bearings (in the old days simply an oil impregnated bronze bushing)

Having been a Saab family in the 1970s and 80s, I've replaced warped clutch plates and plenty of pilot bearings. I also used to do track days with the local Porsche and Z clubs in my 99 Turbo. But that's a whole 'other story.

3 bits of wisdom from a Saab Master Tech who I used to work with.

1) the only time the clutch isn't wearing is when its fully engaged or fully disengaged. Try to get through that middle part with as little throttle as possible as quickly as possible.

2) The Saab hydraulic clutch system was very robust. The pilot bearing not so much. So put it into neutral.

3) If you are really thinking, when you see its time to stop, when there is no load either accelerating or decelerating, slip the transmission into Neutral WITHOUT using the clutch. Then step on the clutch when the light turns green and put it into gear.

I always got into the habit of slipping it into neutral without the clutch, when I had time to do it smoothly.

 

[TwelveGaugeSage]

The old autos, yeah wouldn't own one. The new DCT is very good, and so much easier to drive at the limit and get more out of the car, for me anyways.

I have zero doubts that the DCT can outperform the older manuals and automatics. It still isn't a manual. If I was racing for money, I would take one. For my own personal use and fun? Never.

 

[foo.c]

I have zero doubts that the DCT can outperform the older manuals and automatics. It still isn't a manual. If I was racing for money, I would take one. For my own personal use and fun? Never.

Totally understand. For me there is a point where it isn't fun anymore, and would never want one that came with reduced capability. Definitely respect anyone that can wring 100% out of one.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Having been a Saab family in the 1970s and 80s, I've replaced warped clutch plates and plenty of pilot bearings. I also used to do track days with the local Porsche and Z clubs in my 99 Turbo. But that's a whole 'other story.

3 bits of wisdom from a Saab Master Tech who I used to work with.

1) the only time the clutch isn't wearing is when its fully engaged or fully disengaged. Try to get through that middle part with as little throttle as possible as quickly as possible.

2) The Saab hydraulic clutch system was very robust. The pilot bearing not so much. So put it into neutral.

3) If you are really thinking, when you see its time to stop, when there is no load either accelerating or decelerating, slip the transmission into Neutral WITHOUT using the clutch. Then step on the clutch when the light turns green and put it into gear.

I always got into the habit of slipping it into neutral without the clutch, when I had time to do it smoothly.

I've done that a time or 10 with my cars - it was really easy in my first car as it was a stick with OD and there was an over-running clutch in that that totally took all drag off. Piece of cake to pull it out of gear and not even touch the clutch.
I also prefer to not hold the clutch pedal down on hydraulic systems as I keep thinking of the pressure on the cups in the master and slave cylinder, and with my current SX4 - I dare ya to find replacement master cylinders, once in a while you come across slave cylinders, but if the master goes - good luck. I had one go out in traffic years ago - yikes, was sitting with the pedal down, in low, ready to go and suddenly the car was taking off! WOW. That's another reason I see sitting in neutral to be good. And years ago I read an article about people who were hit from behind when sitting with their foot on the clutch - at times it caused their foot to slip off and jump forward.

 

[DanW]

Awesome! So assume shifting to Neutral with Brake on is Trigger to shutdown engine?

Yep. I usually drop to neutral and release the clutch when braking and when rpms get down around 1000, I think. The restart won't trigger with brake release, but rather when you press the clutch.

 

[dcmdon]

I've done that a time or 10 with my cars - it was really easy in my first car as it was a stick with OD and there was an over-running clutch in that that totally took all drag off. Piece of cake to pull it out of gear and not even touch the clutch.
I also prefer to not hold the clutch pedal down on hydraulic systems as I keep thinking of the pressure on the cups in the master and slave cylinder, and with my current SX4 - I dare ya to find replacement master cylinders, once in a while you come across slave cylinders, but if the master goes - good luck. I had one go out in traffic years ago - yikes, was sitting with the pedal down, in low, ready to go and suddenly the car was taking off! WOW. That's another reason I see sitting in neutral to be good. And years ago I read an article about people who were hit from behind when sitting with their foot on the clutch - at times it caused their foot to slip off and jump forward.

I never had the slave or master go on me instantly. The slave would leak and I'd have to pump the clutch to get full disengagement.

One funny situation. I had my left foot operated on. I was living in New Haven so it was an urban environment. To drive, I'd have to start it in first gear, clutch engaged and crank it until it caught. Then instantly moving.

To shift up, I'd breathe off the throttle slip it into neutral,, then blip the throttle with a bit of pressure on the shifter for 3rd (might as well skip a gear) when the revs matched it would slip into gear.

Coming to a stop, I'd slip it into neutral, shut the car off, put it in first and wait for the light to turn green.

Ha. Good times.

 

[Choatecav]

Actually, he was one of the lead designers on the original Pentastar. It is #1 on his resume. And before the coatings, he said it absolutely DOES result in accelerated wear. He saw the data when they tested it extensively on the gen 1 Pentastar, which did not have the coatings. He moved on to other projects while the development continued and the coatings were introduced. He did say that the coatings may actually work. He was not in on the development of the PUG version that we have in our Jeeps, but knows that team well. He is skeptical and knows the engine lasts a long, long time without it (ESS). He said the team that appllied it in the PUG believes it works. But he remains skeptical or cautious. He shuts it off in his vehicles for that reason.

Besides that, it gains 1mpg for me with my driving style, at best. Not worth it for me. Like I said, if the coatings work, then I'll have a million mile engine with a starter that will never need replacement. Lol!

He's got lots of other insights that I'll share from time to time when he shares them. And if someone has questions, shoot me a message and I'll forward them to him, or will tell you what he's said if it's already been answered. He LOVES talking Pentastars, as it is his baby. His favorite ride? He has a Chrysler 300 that is properly maintained and is getting into high mileage, with no issues.

He does sometimes take awhile to answer back. He works some crazy hours and has his own auto related business on the side.

Y'all need to listen to Dan W.

It is crazy to say that constant stop/start/stop/start doesn't wear the engine. Yes, the components may be beefed up but LONG before we had auto start/stop mechanisms the principals of physics were in place and they reign to this day. Friction is your enemy and the more it has to start and stop the faster it wears out. I cannot believe this is not being embraced and understood.

Someone earlier said:
"ESS does no accelerate engine wear. ESS has been around for many years - starting in the 90s with hybrid cars."

Well, heck, the same can be said of Nancy Pelosi, who has been around for many years and look at what a train wreck she has been for the country!

Yes, there may be a sheen of oil on the components but there is still friction from use that would not be there if the engine were not prematurely shut down.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree as I am not buying it and I have been around long enough (60 plus years) to have seen this evolve, or devolve, as it were.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Y'all need to listen to Dan W.

It is crazy to say that constant stop/start/stop/start doesn't wear the engine. Yes, the components may be beefed up but LONG before we had auto start/stop mechanisms the principals of physics were in place and they reign to this day. Friction is your enemy and the more it has to start and stop the faster it wears out. I cannot believe this is not being embraced and understood.

Someone earlier said:
"ESS does no accelerate engine wear. ESS has been around for many years - starting in the 90s with hybrid cars."

Well, heck, the same can be said of Nancy Pelosi, who has been around for many years and look at what a train wreck she has been for the country!

Yes, there may be a sheen of oil on the components but there is still friction from use that would not be there if the engine were not prematurely shut down.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree as I am not buying it and I have been around long enough (60 plus years) to have seen this evolve, or devolve, as it were.

I got my information from the car company people that are involved. Also from engine people. Warm starts aren't nearly the same as cold starts. The technology has been around - you don't see the engines that have used these systems wearing out prematurely.
I've been a mechanic for only 14 years shorter than I've been alive.
I'd love for someone to explain - in technical terms, not "because I say so" - how starting a warm engine accelerates wear in things like pistons, rods, cylinder walls......... especially when they are still soaked in oil when started only a few seconds later (90 max)
Friction that wouldn't be there in a running engine? Sorry, I do have to laugh about that.......... there's more friction when it's running because of the combustion pressures against the top of the piston and the forces applied to the rod when running that actually SQUEEZE out oil while spinning it <2 seconds to start means they are going up and down with little pressure and no outward force on the rings.
It's so funny to see the arguments against ESS, and arguments stating "it absolutely shortens engine life" coming from non-trained and non-professionals, while I can show links and quotes to the contrary.

Still waiting for the technical explanation from an expert, an ENGINEER.


Does stop-start cause premature wear and tear?
The widespread application of stop-start has only been possible because of improvements in things like battery technology, bearings, oils and control systems in vehicles. See, asking an engine to stop and then start again places strains on components. Indeed, if you took a starter motor from the 1990s and looked at one from today, the modern starter would be much stronger capable of handling up to 500,000 cycles in its ‘lifetime’ – the older starter would have only been designed to handle around 50,000 start cycles. All sorts of things are different, from the type of bearings used, to the long-life brushes, the way the solenoid works, the wiring (beefed up). The aim is to make it easier for the starter motor to do its job.

The same with the battery which is now a much stronger thing than it was in the 1990s, and that’s because when the engine’s stopped, but we still want to keep our lights on and listen to music and run the heating or cooling, and then start the engine when the lights turn green. Beyond a beefed-up battery and wiring harness, some system utilise a separate battery for restarting the engine while the main battery worries about everything else, and some use a capacitor that stores a charge to jolt the starter motor. And then there’s slicker, stickier engine oil that will stay on the moving parts when the engine is stopped for longer, and bearings which are now slipperier via lubrication but also in construction.

Practical Motoring spoke with the technical boss at a leading car maker who said that stop-start doesn’t cause additional wear and tear on an engine but that the owner must adhere to the recommended service schedule and use the manufacturer’s recommended oil. “Using cheaper oils can cause more damage to your car’s engine than anything else,” he told Practical Motoring. “Operational stop-start causes no wear and tear at all; wear and tear at cold start-up is a thing, though,” he said.

 

[DanW]

I got my information from the car company people that are involved. Also from engine people. Warm starts aren't nearly the same as cold starts. The technology has been around - you don't see the engines that have used these systems wearing out prematurely.
I've been a mechanic for only 14 years shorter than I've been alive.
I'd love for someone to explain - in technical terms, not "because I say so" - how starting a warm engine accelerates wear in things like pistons, rods, cylinder walls......... especially when they are still soaked in oil when started only a few seconds later (90 max)
Friction that wouldn't be there in a running engine? Sorry, I do have to laugh about that.......... there's more friction when it's running because of the combustion pressures against the top of the piston and the forces applied to the rod when running that actually SQUEEZE out oil while spinning it <2 seconds to start means they are going up and down with little pressure and no outward force on the rings.
It's so funny to see the arguments against ESS, and arguments stating "it absolutely shortens engine life" coming from non-trained and non-professionals, while I can show links and quotes to the contrary.

Still waiting for the technical explanation from an expert, an ENGINEER.


Does stop-start cause premature wear and tear?
The widespread application of stop-start has only been possible because of improvements in things like battery technology, bearings, oils and control systems in vehicles. See, asking an engine to stop and then start again places strains on components. Indeed, if you took a starter motor from the 1990s and looked at one from today, the modern starter would be much stronger capable of handling up to 500,000 cycles in its ‘lifetime’ – the older starter would have only been designed to handle around 50,000 start cycles. All sorts of things are different, from the type of bearings used, to the long-life brushes, the way the solenoid works, the wiring (beefed up). The aim is to make it easier for the starter motor to do its job.

The same with the battery which is now a much stronger thing than it was in the 1990s, and that’s because when the engine’s stopped, but we still want to keep our lights on and listen to music and run the heating or cooling, and then start the engine when the lights turn green. Beyond a beefed-up battery and wiring harness, some system utilise a separate battery for restarting the engine while the main battery worries about everything else, and some use a capacitor that stores a charge to jolt the starter motor. And then there’s slicker, stickier engine oil that will stay on the moving parts when the engine is stopped for longer, and bearings which are now slipperier via lubrication but also in construction.

Practical Motoring spoke with the technical boss at a leading car maker who said that stop-start doesn’t cause additional wear and tear on an engine but that the owner must adhere to the recommended service schedule and use the manufacturer’s recommended oil. “Using cheaper oils can cause more damage to your car’s engine than anything else,” he told Practical Motoring. “Operational stop-start causes no wear and tear at all; wear and tear at cold start-up is a thing, though,” he said.

That's partially correct. There's more to it than warm vs. cold. There is still metal to metal contact, even if mitigated by the oil's film presence. But a warm start has more wear than constant running, even though it may have less wear than a cold start. And there is still plenty of friction. Thus the need to beef up the starter motor, as well.

Yes, there are qualitative differences in oils, but that's a whole other subject. They are pretty similar in normal conditions if they meet the proper API spec. The higher quality oils won't show their full advantages unless pushed to extremes, such as temperature or oil change interval. No oil, no matter how good, provides its full protection until it is under pressure and flowing in. Every start, even if warm, has a brief moment of zero oil pressure when the engine gets moving. That's where the wear comes in. The film left over during a warm start reduces it, but that film doesn't last long.

But if that guy was entirely correct, there would be no need for the expensive coatings put in these engines to protect them from ESS. They do need them. That's why they were developed. Hopefully, they work as advertised.

And as far as hybrids go, yes, they've been around awhile. BUT, they typically don't go through as many start/stop cycles as an ESS equipped engine, given the same driving pattern. ESS is considered by some to be a hybrid, but it really is not. It provides no power at all. (Not confusing it with E-torque, which IS a very mild form of hybrid, but I still think that's a reach because the vehicle never relies solely on electric power.) The 4xE is a hybrid. ESS is not. Etorque blurs the line a little.

My bet is that these engines will get to 200k without much issue using ESS. But I'll let someone else find out if they can get to 300k or even 500k, which is surprisingly common with the Pentastar. The coating may be the real deal and get some of them there.

Btw, I do agree that oils have gotten MUCH Better. And thinner oils help a great deal with ESS, getting the oil to the various parts, especially that complicated valve train, more quickly. And it helps keep ESS viable. A 200k engine is absolutely viable. I just want mine to go further, God willing that I live long enough for it to get there.

 

[Gvsukids]

Amazing how a thread about a clutch can turn into a discussion on ESS.
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/ess-like-it-or-not.14786/
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...you-like-or-dislike-auto-start-stop-ess.9775/
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...ine-cutoff-ess-when-stopped.36525/post-591942

 

[Deleted member 30519]

I'm suprised nobody mentioned to him yet that the ESS does not work when the seatbelts not on. I doubt this is why but it's a possibility.

 

[DanW]

Amazing how a thread about a clutch can turn into a discussion on ESS.
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/ess-like-it-or-not.14786/
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...you-like-or-dislike-auto-start-stop-ess.9775/
https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/...ine-cutoff-ess-when-stopped.36525/post-591942

So you are amazed that people can talk about something and take a turn? Keeps things interesting, if you ask me.

 

[Midnight Rider]

Well, there are those Max Tow folks who think they've got it going on and those Rubicon folks who think they are number one... But we're all driving a Gladiator and should be proud of it.

The fact that this single platform literally offers something for almost everyone is remarkable.

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