Wicked rear passenger head impact!! Updated JL crash test. Where is the rear side curtain?

[The Duck of Earl]

I'm all for safety, but to bash a company because a niche vehicle aimed at a specific market isn't the safest in the world - and yet, here you are, it's hard to understand.

That is precisely the point of this post and is certainly a reasonable position. This is a public forum and a place to call out Jeep for what I and certainly others perceive to be a pretty egregious omission.

Sure Jeep does some things well, but the lack of a rear airbag in a MASS market vehicle platform is not one of them. Add up the JLs and JTs - we are not talking about some niche coupe/drop top. We are talking about a 4 door family car/truck - regardless of however you chose to use it.

Jeep goes as far as touting the vehicle safety on its website and even claiming it has an 'advanced airbag system'.

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[The Duck of Earl]

if you think the impact that crash test dummy took in the JL was bad, go look at the test footage from larger “family-focused” vehicles. There’s no “fandom clouding judgement” here. I never said that what the results showed was inherently “acceptable”. But the JL test dummies faired better overall when compared to far more popular vehicles that are targeted directly towards families.

Except for that blow to the head of the rear passenger, as you acknowledge. That could be a major concussion or worse. Which certainly should nullify any other good aspects of the crash results regardless if the BOF structure held up better than the tin can Korean models (which certainly seemed to be engineered specifically just to meet the old testing standards) and better protected one's pelvis. Having an intact pelvis does you no good if your brains are smeared all over the place.

 

[redriderjf87]

I understand the KISS theory. Just that power door locks and windows are something I don't think is an actual problem. The doors on my 2000 Ram are completely rusting out, I've replaced numerous other necessary electronic related things like the starter, thermostat, etc. and the radio, heat, and A/C just don't work. Through all of this the power locks and windows work great and never skipped a beat.

I respect your experience, but they have actually failed for other people. It's probability, even being a low probability (increasing over time though). KISS theory in this case means reducing that probability by eliminating it.

Not pushing it on anyone else, but just giving one reason why someone may want them, to answer your original point on that.

I agree that maybe I I misnamed the ask. Same airbag in the rear as they have in the front is not a hard ask.

Yeah I'm with you on that. That would be reasonable and sounds like a relatively easy way to boost the crash test rating if that was the bottleneck score.

I am not a safety nut by any means. Do plenty of action sports type pastimes, and my risk tolerance is relatively high. That said I sold my motorcycle after a few too many close calls, and am much more careful on my bicycle riding even on roads clearly marked as 'share the road' after getting clipped by a car and thrown up on their hood making a left cross on my green (luckily it was a small hatchback). I trust myself to stay within proper limits on a bike, skis, snowmobile, etc., but I don't trust that new driver in his/her daddy's F250 to not be tiktoking and barreling into the side my vehicle.

Don't disagree. Definitely have to weigh the risks.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

People bashing Jeep for lack of that side protection, and yet here they are, owning Jeeps - eyes wide open or not?
These vehicles are sold or marketed to specific groups. Sounds like some may be buying the wrong vehicles. Rather than understand these aren't for everyone, nor are they aimed at young families with little kids, or families that normally haul people in the rear, they demand CHANGE to fit their desires.

Oh, but it's SOOO simple to just add those air bags.
Is it?
Yeah, put them in that roll cage.
Why not - it's easy. Just cut a spot, run some wires, put the air bag in. Or - Totally re-engineer and recertify that whole roll cage - because you can't simply cut and add. Any change to that structure means starting over - engineering and design, testing and certifying. You are talking modifying roll-over protection. And is there really room in there? Air bags and the supporting hardware and electronics take space (and add weight)
(of course negating the addition of accessories like sun shades, grab handles and other stuff because would interfere with the air bags)
Then you have the added weight, added electronics and controls....... these still are part of CAFE.
The government is mandating even tighter CAFE and emissions in the next 1 to 3 years. Airbags, seat sensors, the wiring, the electronics, all adds weight. You want you cake with lots of icing and want to eat it to, and have a helping of pie and ice cream while at it.
You want payload - but want Jeep to add weight to the truck. Seems to me that adding to one takes away from another.

These are aimed at a niche market. Want Jeep to survive? Gotta give a little. Go buy a Bronco if you want to haul kids or have 5 adults with you at all times. These aren't marketed to all people to be all things. Buy the vehicle then complain about how deadly and unsafe it is. So little thought has gone into those complaints. Impact tests and reality don't always align perfectly.

Jeep has so very little to do - this is easy, right? Arm chair engineers have proclaimed it's easy to just add what's up front to the rear.
And people are wondering why Jeep MAY be cutting the 2022 model year short............. why not spend time re-designing the roll cage at the same time that are having to modify their vehicles to meet Europe's new demands - the European Commission has decided to make AEB mandatory on all new cars from mid-2022.
So if Jeep wants to sell these in Europe, starting now, they have to include AEB.
That means added weight, added electronics - not just for those of us who order the advanced safety options, but for ALL vehicles heading to Europe.

So get serious - what will you GIVE UP to have those rear side air bags?
Payload? MPG? the ability to remove doors and roof? Internal cabin space? Head room? Ability to add accessories like shades, handles and many other things I'm not listing?

Can't have it all - something has to go so choose what you will give up to have those air bags, and then convince all other Jeep buyers they have to agree with you to give those things up (and to PAY MORE - yes, you are adding costs - so sales will go down, and Jeep will stop making them - happy now?)
Then tell Jeep they may as well stop production now because they'll not be able to meet EPA/CAFE regs when they make these changes.
You want everyone else to give up the features, or even ability to own these, because you feel they are deadly, death traps and you demand they change because it's really so very easy.
Better idea - go buy something else with 50 air bags and a force field. These aren't family cars.
You buy these, then accuse Jeep of building death traps.

But carry on, ya'll have it all figured out as to how easy adding an air bag is and just know it could be added without any real engineering costs or time spent in testing and certification of the structure. They can do it at the same time they are meeting new regulations for the AEB and other things.

 

[Roklimo]

Last Jeep you will ever own?

 

[MrFahrenheit]

Ahhh, this forum never ceases to disappoint

:

 

[NachoRuby]

I understand the KISS theory. Just that power door locks and windows are something I don't think is an actual problem. The doors on my 2000 Ram are completely rusting out, I've replaced numerous other necessary electronic related things like the starter, thermostat, etc. and the radio, heat, and A/C just don't work. Through all of this the power locks and windows work great and never skipped a beat.

I agree that maybeI I misnamed the ask. Same airbag in the rear as they have in the front is not a hard ask.

I am not a safety nut by any means. Do plenty of action sports type pastimes, and my risk tolerance is relatively high. That said I sold my motorcycle after a few too many close calls, and am much more careful on my bicycle riding even on roads clearly marked as 'share the road' after getting clipped by a car and thrown up on their hood making a left cross on my green (luckily it was a small hatchback). I trust myself to stay within proper limits on a bike, skis, snowmobile, etc., but I don't trust that new driver in his/her daddy's F250 to not be tiktoking and barreling into the side my vehicle.

The power windows are out in my old 1997 Jetta. Meanwhile, the crank windows in my 1973 Beetle are going strong as ever, at 50 years old. Also, the power window motor in the front passenger position our 2016 JKU needs to be replaced soon, it's slow.

It definitely has a large potential to be an added maintenance thing if the vehicle is going to be around a while. Worse still, the parts become hard to come by as the vehicle ages and is less supported.

That said, my JT has power power windows and locks (but a manual trans). But I understand the reason folks want manual locks and windows.

 

[NachoRuby]

The test does rate the Jeep as good in head/neck injuries though. How'd it earn good there, if things were really that bad compared to others? I'd like to look at the same video for one that rated lower for injuries.

I think the protection test automatically has to be rated poor for since it doesn't have airbags there. I understand the video, but the rating for head/neck injuries was "good". The ones with less than good had to be worse, even though they had airbags.

 

[Mister Lamb]

Oh, but it's SOOO simple to just add those air bags.
Is it?

Yes

Yeah, put them in that roll cage.

Or........

Put them where the JK had them?

 

[chorky]

I still don't understand those who want crank windows, but I can understand the desire to not be forced to buy all the other tech stuff like a bigger infotainment unit. Airbags are different, and there is no excuse.

You just contradicted yourself here bud. its 'ok' for people to have the freedom to choose a manual crank window that you will never agree with but an airbag should not be something someone should be allowed to choose? hmm..

I'm all for freedoms. Dont want them, dont have to be required to have them. Picking and choosing what people should and should not be allowed to choose is hypocritical...

Why buy one if you are so pissed about it? Huh?

I guess you have to upgrade vehicles every year - can't have any risks, now. The 2024 models will have a quantum force field that repels all impacts.

Man, how did our parents ever survive. How did we ever survive growing up?

I'm all for safety, but to bash a company because a niche vehicle aimed at a specific market isn't the safest in the world - and yet, here you are, it's hard to understand.

Here's the thing already stated well. Why is there this insanity around making everything so safe? Has anyone considered that by making things safe we are actually less safe? Look at how people drove vehicles 20 years ago. Rarely would you see SO many IDIOTS driving 90 miles an hour in a 60 zone. But they do so because cars today are easy to drive fast, capable (for the most part compared to 20 years ago), and safer. So the consequences are less. Its the same thing as why there are so many more break-ins and crime raging our country. there's little to no consequence. If you knew that driving 40 over the speed limit was going to result in a likely death if you did something dumb, then you probably would think twice about doing it. But with these advanced safety systems making death doing dumb things less likely then people throw caution to the wind and do what they want without thought or consideration of others. Nobody ever sees an old guy in a Datsun pickup doing 90 around a corner posted at 45... But see some jack wagon in a new Honda trying to do 100 because if they do crash likely they will walk away without issue.

So I would argue that all of these crazy advanced safety systems are inherently making us even more unsafe due to complacency and lack of utilizing ones grey matter up in their head.

Lol you realize we're talking about airbags... those things that have existed since the 70s. Why does this one request get everyone's panties in a bunch? Wouldn't more people be inclined to buy these with improved safety ratings? What does Jeep have to lose?

I am perfectly happy without having side airbags. This rig is already safer than any vehicle I have ever owned before... And I dont drive like an idiot like 90% of our current population. I'm happy to not have the added expense or complexities

Oh, but it's SOOO simple to just add those air bags.
Is it?
Yeah, put them in that roll cage.
Why not - it's easy. Just cut a spot, run some wires, put the air bag in. Or - Totally re-engineer and recertify that whole roll cage - because you can't simply cut and add. Any change to that structure means starting over - engineering and design, testing and certifying. You are talking modifying roll-over protection. And is there really room in there? Air bags and the supporting hardware and electronics take space (and add weight)
(of course negating the addition of accessories like sun shades, grab handles and other stuff because would interfere with the air bags)
Then you have the added weight, added electronics and controls....... these still are part of CAFE.
The government is mandating even tighter CAFE and emissions in the next 1 to 3 years. Airbags, seat sensors, the wiring, the electronics, all adds weight. You want you cake with lots of icing and want to eat it to, and have a helping of pie and ice cream while at it.
You want payload - but want Jeep to add weight to the truck. Seems to me that adding to one takes away from another.

So get serious - what will you GIVE UP to have those rear side air bags?
Payload? MPG? the ability to remove doors and roof? Internal cabin space? Head room? Ability to add accessories like shades, handles and many other things I'm not listing?

Can't have it all - something has to go so choose what you will give up to have those air bags, and then convince all other Jeep buyers they have to agree with you to give those things up (and to PAY MORE - yes, you are adding costs - so sales will go down, and Jeep will stop making them - happy now?)
Then tell Jeep they may as well stop production now because they'll not be able to meet EPA/CAFE regs when they make these changes.
You want everyone else to give up the features, or even ability to own these, because you feel they are deadly, death traps and you demand they change because it's really so very easy.
Better idea - go buy something else with 50 air bags and a force field. These aren't family cars.
You buy these, then accuse Jeep of building death traps.

But carry on, ya'll have it all figured out as to how easy adding an air bag is and just know it could be added without any real engineering costs or time spent in testing and certification of the structure. They can do it at the same time they are meeting new regulations for the AEB and other things.

This right here.... Also, what about the added cost? Or the higher chances of a 'totaled' vehicle in the event of an accident? Not all of us can cover that extra cost. Take away the removable doors and top and its no longer a Jeep. After all it is already the only legal on road vehicle that is even allowed by our big government to even use without doors. So why complain about airbags when you dont even have to have doors on to drive? Maybe we should make the doors no longer removable. Because 'safety'

 

[dcmdon]

Crank windows are a KISS theory thing, just to help the OP understand. Same for manual locks.

I'm all for replicating whatever side airbags they used on the front occupants to the back, sounds like it's in/by the seat as opposed to actual side curtain. That's a reasonable ask I feel like.

Other than that, I'm not trying to turn my Jeep into a Volvo. Sometimes I drive with the darn doors off, and I even ride a freaking trail bike on the road.

Just one data point. I have owned cars with power windows and locks since the early 90s. In that time and probably 600,000 miles, I have never had my power windows or locks fail.

IMHO the only reason to get a Jeep with manual windows and locks is to keep door removal simple.

Although that may be wrong. A friend of mine has a Sport JK and it has no electrical connections to the door. I'm guessing that may not betrue of a sport JL or JT.

 

[redriderjf87]

Just one data point. I have owned cars with power windows and locks since the early 90s. In that time and probably 600,000 miles, I have never had my power windows or locks fail.

IMHO the only reason to get a Jeep with manual windows and locks is to keep door removal simple.

Although that may be wrong. A friend of mine has a Sport JK and it has no electrical connections to the door. I'm guessing that may not betrue of a sport JL or JT.

I respect your personal experience, but until you commit to replace electric window components for me in the event of a failure (which should be an easy commitment if they never fail according to your experience), I will save myself the potential trouble, by reducing the probability of failure from small to 0.

That is another reason. To save potential repair/replacement in the future. I'll leave it there.

 

[Gvsukids]

Yeah, put them in that roll cage.
Why not - it's easy. Just cut a spot, run some wires, put the air bag in.

So are you disagreeing with what I said or reiterating?

Ahhh, this forum never ceases to disappoint

:

Or we can talk about the size of the fob...

 

[The Duck of Earl]

People bashing Jeep for lack of that side protection, and yet here they are, owning Jeeps - eyes wide open or not?
These vehicles are sold or marketed to specific groups. Sounds like some may be buying the wrong vehicles. Rather than understand these aren't for everyone, nor are they aimed at young families with little kids, or families that normally haul people in the rear, they demand CHANGE to fit their desires.

Oh, but it's SOOO simple to just add those air bags.
Is it?
Yeah, put them in that roll cage.
Why not - it's easy. Just cut a spot, run some wires, put the air bag in. Or - Totally re-engineer and recertify that whole roll cage - because you can't simply cut and add. Any change to that structure means starting over - engineering and design, testing and certifying. You are talking modifying roll-over protection. And is there really room in there? Air bags and the supporting hardware and electronics take space (and add weight)
(of course negating the addition of accessories like sun shades, grab handles and other stuff because would interfere with the air bags)
Then you have the added weight, added electronics and controls....... these still are part of CAFE.
The government is mandating even tighter CAFE and emissions in the next 1 to 3 years. Airbags, seat sensors, the wiring, the electronics, all adds weight. You want you cake with lots of icing and want to eat it to, and have a helping of pie and ice cream while at it.
You want payload - but want Jeep to add weight to the truck. Seems to me that adding to one takes away from another.

These are aimed at a niche market. Want Jeep to survive? Gotta give a little. Go buy a Bronco if you want to haul kids or have 5 adults with you at all times. These aren't marketed to all people to be all things. Buy the vehicle then complain about how deadly and unsafe it is. So little thought has gone into those complaints. Impact tests and reality don't always align perfectly.

Jeep has so very little to do - this is easy, right? Arm chair engineers have proclaimed it's easy to just add what's up front to the rear.
And people are wondering why Jeep MAY be cutting the 2022 model year short............. why not spend time re-designing the roll cage at the same time that are having to modify their vehicles to meet Europe's new demands - the European Commission has decided to make AEB mandatory on all new cars from mid-2022.
So if Jeep wants to sell these in Europe, starting now, they have to include AEB.
That means added weight, added electronics - not just for those of us who order the advanced safety options, but for ALL vehicles heading to Europe.

So get serious - what will you GIVE UP to have those rear side air bags?
Payload? MPG? the ability to remove doors and roof? Internal cabin space? Head room? Ability to add accessories like shades, handles and many other things I'm not listing?

Can't have it all - something has to go so choose what you will give up to have those air bags, and then convince all other Jeep buyers they have to agree with you to give those things up (and to PAY MORE - yes, you are adding costs - so sales will go down, and Jeep will stop making them - happy now?)
Then tell Jeep they may as well stop production now because they'll not be able to meet EPA/CAFE regs when they make these changes.
You want everyone else to give up the features, or even ability to own these, because you feel they are deadly, death traps and you demand they change because it's really so very easy.
Better idea - go buy something else with 50 air bags and a force field. These aren't family cars.
You buy these, then accuse Jeep of building death traps.

But carry on, ya'll have it all figured out as to how easy adding an air bag is and just know it could be added without any real engineering costs or time spent in testing and certification of the structure. They can do it at the same time they are meeting new regulations for the AEB and other things.

Just because you type more words doesn't make your opinion more right than some else's.

We are talking about two airbags to avoid what is clearly at best laziness by Jeep or in my opinion negligence via their omission. Ford has them on the Bronco and last I check those doors come off too and they don't affect any of the other things you are apparently worried about.

 

[The Duck of Earl]

You just contradicted yourself here bud. its 'ok' for people to have the freedom to choose a manual crank window that you will never agree with but an airbag should not be something someone should be allowed to choose? hmm..

I'm all for freedoms. Dont want them, dont have to be required to have them. Picking and choosing what people should and should not be allowed to choose is hypocritical...



Here's the thing already stated well. Why is there this insanity around making everything so safe? Has anyone considered that by making things safe we are actually less safe? Look at how people drove vehicles 20 years ago. Rarely would you see SO many IDIOTS driving 90 miles an hour in a 60 zone. But they do so because cars today are easy to drive fast, capable (for the most part compared to 20 years ago), and safer. So the consequences are less. Its the same thing as why there are so many more break-ins and crime raging our country. there's little to no consequence. If you knew that driving 40 over the speed limit was going to result in a likely death if you did something dumb, then you probably would think twice about doing it. But with these advanced safety systems making death doing dumb things less likely then people throw caution to the wind and do what they want without thought or consideration of others. Nobody ever sees an old guy in a Datsun pickup doing 90 around a corner posted at 45... But see some jack wagon in a new Honda trying to do 100 because if they do crash likely they will walk away without issue.

So I would argue that all of these crazy advanced safety systems are inherently making us even more unsafe due to complacency and lack of utilizing ones grey matter up in their head.




I am perfectly happy without having side airbags. This rig is already safer than any vehicle I have ever owned before... And I dont drive like an idiot like 90% of our current population. I'm happy to not have the added expense or complexities



This right here.... Also, what about the added cost? Or the higher chances of a 'totaled' vehicle in the event of an accident? Not all of us can cover that extra cost. Take away the removable doors and top and its no longer a Jeep. After all it is already the only legal on road vehicle that is even allowed by our big government to even use without doors. So why complain about airbags when you dont even have to have doors on to drive? Maybe we should make the doors no longer removable. Because 'safety'

I am not sure I did contradict myself. I simply stated I cannot understand the desire to not have them. I simply cannot imagine having to contort myself around the truck to make sure the doors are locked or roll up rear or side window. But that is me, and I also bemoan that the rear window slider on the hard top is not powered.

As far as safety, I think air bags which protect you and your passengers from other drivers is not an overreach nor would change how anyone would drive their own vehicle.

My family's primary people mover is a Subaru Outback which has the eyesight suite (auto braking, etc.). While I do find the systems annoying (the constant beeping and the brakes automatically engaging where I am in complete control and where they are in no way needed) I do not go out of my way to disengage them like I do auto stop and start. The other way you have to look at it is that these systems in other people's cars are there to protect YOU as much as them by stopping their 5,000 pound battering ram from T-boning you.

The distractions other drivers seem to have are going up and a side impact is typically an accident the struck driver had no control over. Having at least some protection for rear passengers from idiots and drunks should not be something that has to even be asked for.

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