Cold Air Intake...

[DanW]

Anyone thought about the Banks Ram Air? It looks like it might be a good one.

I don't know if they produce any more power. Banks doesn't claim any hp gains, but claims significantly more air flow than the competition. I put it out on the JL side of the forum that if anyone wants to give me a Banks, my nephew has a very sophisticated wheel dyno. He is co-owner of 4 Piston Racing, which builds racing engines. Anyway, I'd put the stock on the dyno, then swap it out and put the banks on there. We'd see the numbers back to back. We'd settle the horsepower gain issue once and for all and would have a nice graph telling us where it makes it in the power band, plus we'd have expert analysis to go along with it.

Nobody wants to give me a free Banks ram Air, though. Bummer.

Another setup I like, but seriously doubt it offers much benefit, is the Mopar. First, it is the one that truly can get cold air from outside the engine compartment, with its hood vent. Second, you can put a paper filter in it and close off that vent to go back to essentially a stock setup for going off road in the dust. That's where these cloth filters will get your engine, btw. Street driving probably will cause no significant reduction in engine life. Get in the dust, though, and they can't filter nearly as well as paper, unless they have so many layers that it negates their higher air flow.

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[vicunknwn]

I have the Banks Ram Air. It adds some nice engine notes paired with the Hooker dual exhaust. On that note the Hooker dual exhaust looks great in my opinion. The two paired are too loud for my taste; my wife likes it and she is picky. It makes some small gargle exhaust noise that reminds me of a AMG GLA 45 I used to drive. Definitely not as cool of exhaust notes compared to the GLA 45. I'm going to switch the intake to the Mishimoto when it comes out.

 

[Russler]

Here is another similar thread - https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/anyone-install-mopar-cold-air-intake-yet.26321/

 

[Mishimoto]

Hey everybody,

Just wanted to jump in because I read through the thread and saw a bit of misinformation floating around, so I figured I'd add to the conversation with what we've found through R&D. Full disclosure: we do sell intakes, but the purpose of this post is not to sell you on anything, just provide information. So, here goes:

1. Do "cold air" intakes improve MPGs

On modern vehicles, no, they do not. As someone else pointed out modern fuel-injected engines only take in as much air and fuel as needed to hit a target air/fuel ratio or torque output based on load, ignition timing, etc. The idea that a better flowing intake will improve gas mileage is really a carry-over myth from carbureted engines where poor flow could affect the atomization of the fuel in the carb.

2. Does higher flow = less filtration.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of ways to improve flow with a filter media that is equivalent to the OEM filter. One of those ways is to increase the size of the filter. A larger filter will allow more air to flow into the intake without sacrificing filtration because the air is not forced through as small of a space.

Another way is by changing the filter material itself. Air is a fluid, so it will flow around the fibers of a filter, whereas dirt and dust will not. Filters made of a woven cotton material have staggered fibers that capture 99% or more of particles down to 5 microns but still allow air to flow through the weave. In contrast, a cotton gauze material will need to be less dense in order to flow more air because the fibers are not uniformly laid out - air has to change direction a lot more, so the only way to increase flow is to reduce density and sacrifice some filtration.

Oiled filters also improve filtration without sacrificing flow. The oil particles do not impede airflow, but they do capture and suspend smaller particles than would normally be captured by a dry media. So an oiled filter can be less dense, and therefore less restrictive than a dry filter.

Oiled filters have gotten a bad name over the past several years due to some reporting oil transfer into the intake. In our experience, however, if the filter is properly oiled (read: not over oiled), the oil should not make its way through the filter. We run oiled filters on almost all of our shop vehicles because it's usually what we run R&D with and have never had a fouled MAF sensor from one. I also have an oiled filter on my turbocharged engine and have not had a problem. That being said, dry filters can be better for somebody who off-roads a lot or just doesn't want the maintenance of re-oiling a filter - you may just sacrifice some flow.

3. Aftermarket intakes don't make power

For some vehicles/intakes, this is true, but it's not our experience with the 3.6L. An engine is an air pump and how much power it makes is directly related to how much air it can pull in and exhaust. If the factory intake is very restrictive, you could stand to make a lot of power by improving it. Now, most modern factory intakes are not so restrictive that they're leaving 20-30 HP on the table, it's usually more like 5-10 HP at most.

The engineers at any OEM are usually given a budget, a power figure to hit based on competition or market needs, an envelope to fit all of the components into (the engine bay), and various laws and regulations to fall within. The engineers then have to make the best flowing intake they can within those parameters. For the most part, this yields an intake that 99% of the manufacturers market will never have to think about. But for the 1% that are enthusiasts that want the most out of the engine, there's often something to be gained from a better flowing intake.

On modern turbocharged vehicles, an intake likely won't make power without an ECU tune. Turbocharged engines operate within a much smaller margin of error, so the ECU is programed to hit a target torque within a target air/fuel ratio and not deviate from those specs unless there's an issue. No matter how much better the intake flows, the engine won't pull in the air unless it's told to by the ECU. On the other hand, N/A engines often have much simpler engine control strategies and a wider tolerance for power. The above still applies to a point, but the ECU often allows a slight bump in torque output. As long as the fuel system can push in enough fuel to hit the target air/fuel ratio, and the engine is actually capable of taking in the extra volume as well as exhausting it, the intake should increase power.

4. Do aftermarket intakes shift the power band out of the useable RPM range

This can also be true, if the intake isn't properly designed. It's very common to see intakes that are just a filter on a large diameter pipe with nothing else. However, if you look at the stock intake on the 3.6L you'll see a couple chambers coming off of the tube. Those chambers are resonators, and a lot of people believe their only purpose is to reduce induction noise, but they serve a performance purpose as well. They're what's known as helmholtz resonators and to put it simply, they help improve the volumetric efficiency of the engine by bouncing air back into the intake at precise times to coincide with the intake valves opening. We go over this concept in depth here. Tuned properly, these resonators can shift where in the RPM range the engine reaches peak VE and keep the power in the useable RPM range.

5. If it needed x performance part, the OEM would have included it

As mentioned above, the engineers at any company are given a budget, a market to please, an envelope to fit, regulations, and a plethora of other restrictions to build within when designing any part. There's always a trade off between performance and those other factors, and while the parts work for 99% of the OEM's customers, those who want the most out of their vehicle can often find value in upgrades. It's also worth mentioning that there are often times when the same engine can make significantly more power in other vehicles that command higher price points or have more performance-seeking audiences. For example, the same 3.6L Pentastar found in the Challenger makes 305 HP and 268 lb-ft of torque, 20 more HP and 8 lb-ft of torque than the JL. A lot of this has to do with ECU tuning, but we often find that the same engines in performance vehicles are equipped with better performing ancillary parts than their non-performance cousins - including the intakes and exhausts.


I think that covers everything but if anybody has any questions, feel free to let me know!

-Steve

 

[Dale Vinson]

Just purchased my new Gladiator & was looking at the stock air intake. Tough to tell where it’s actually getting air from. I’ve always run K&N air filters on all my vehicles, as all of them seemed to have a clear path of fresh air to the air box. Therefore, I’ve always believed the CAI was a waste of time & money. I will probably just replace the filter & call it a day, unless someone can convince me otherwise.

 

[Riccochet]

Personally, from hours and hours of dyno time, any intake without supporting mods, like a larger throttle body, don't do jack squat. You can't force more air through a throttle body by making the tube leading to it larger. You can't force more air through the intake plenums. The 90 degree bend leading in to the throttle body negates any velocity stacking effects a larger, smoother intake tube would provide.

I'd like to see flow bench results from OEM and any of these intakes that claim power increases. And then flow bench the plenums. Air, unless mechanically compressed, will only flow so much volume through an orifice.

 

[Mishimoto]

Personally, from hours and hours of dyno time, any intake without supporting mods, like a larger throttle body, don't do jack squat. You can't force more air through a throttle body by making the tube leading to it larger. You can't force more air through the intake plenums. The 90 degree bend leading in to the throttle body negates any velocity stacking effects a larger, smoother intake tube would provide.

I'd like to see flow bench results from OEM and any of these intakes that claim power increases. And then flow bench the plenums. Air, unless mechanically compressed, will only flow so much volume through an orifice.

I'd be happy to share the data we have from R&D

Here are our dyno results (average over 5 runs, after driving the vehicle 100+ miles to allow the ECU to adapt to new airflow characteristics):

And here are our flow bench results for the stock intake vs. our intake:

Here's the raw data for the flow bench too, flow is measured as pressure drop across the intake in inches of water:

Flow Rate	200 CFM	300 CFM	400 CFM
Stock Intake	5.2 inH2O	11 inH2O	18.6 inH2O
Mishimoto Intake	3.23 inH2O	7.05 inH2O	12.4 inH2O

We didn't flow bench the intake manifold, but given the consistent power increase, we don't believe the manifold, head, or exhaust are the limiting factors on the stock 3.6L. We did retain the branch resonators (sized appropriately for our intake volume), which help improve VE and avoids moving the powerband outside of the useable range.

Thanks!
-Steve

 

[cgflyer]

I'd be happy to share the data we have from R&D

Here are our dyno results (average over 5 runs, after driving the vehicle 100+ miles to allow the ECU to adapt to new airflow characteristics):

And here are our flow bench results for the stock intake vs. our intake:

Here's the raw data for the flow bench too, flow is measured as pressure drop across the intake in inches of water:

Flow Rate	200 CFM	300 CFM	400 CFM
Stock Intake	5.2 inH2O	11 inH2O	18.6 inH2O
Mishimoto Intake	3.23 inH2O	7.05 inH2O	12.4 inH2O

We didn't flow bench the intake manifold, but given the consistent power increase, we don't believe the manifold, head, or exhaust are the limiting factors on the stock 3.6L. We did retain the branch resonators (sized appropriately for our intake volume), which help improve VE and avoids moving the powerband outside of the useable range.

Thanks!
-Steve

Thanks for your post, but my only "hmmmm" is when "usable RPM range" is mentioned. I have a MT JTR...even getting on it, I never go above 3,500-4,000 rpm...heck, above 3rd gear, it takes forever to go above 3,000 rpm, the engine just doesn't want to rev out. I have the Pulsar and Gibson exhaust, AFE dry filter (not CAI) and a throttle body spacer...a lot will scoff at the spacer, but I noticed a difference in hill climbs and a bump in mpg. I have 26,000 miles on my truck in a year and average 18.5-19 mpg in mixed driving with 35's and a several weight adding mods...but I disagree emphatically that 4,000+ rpm is in the usable range in the 3.6L Pentastar. Any performance mods I make are for fuel savings in this engine, not power because you just won't ever feel it. I had a 2012 JKR with 3.6L MT with similar mods all for fuel savings, not power.

 

[Riccochet]

Thanks for your post, but my only "hmmmm" is when "usable RPM range" is mentioned. I have a MT JTR...even getting on it, I never go above 3,500-4,000 rpm...heck, above 3rd gear, it takes forever to go above 3,000 rpm, the engine just doesn't want to rev out. I have the Pulsar and Gibson exhaust, AFE dry filter (not CAI) and a throttle body spacer...a lot will scoff at the spacer, but I noticed a difference in hill climbs and a bump in mpg. I have 26,000 miles on my truck in a year and average 18.5-19 mpg in mixed driving with 35's and a several weight adding mods...but I disagree emphatically that 4,000+ rpm is in the usable range in the 3.6L Pentastar. Any performance mods I make are for fuel savings in this engine, not power because you just won't ever feel it. I had a 2012 JKR with 3.6L MT with similar mods all for fuel savings, not power.

I didn't want to mention it, but since you opened that can of worms. Just going by the dyno charts posted it would appear that HP and torque are lower at normal operating range. Which is that 1500-3000 RPM range where you spend most of your time driving normally and wheeling.

A pulsar and ported throttle body would make more sense.

 

[Mishimoto]

Thanks for your post, but my only "hmmmm" is when "usable RPM range" is mentioned. I have a MT JTR...even getting on it, I never go above 3,500-4,000 rpm...heck, above 3rd gear, it takes forever to go above 3,000 rpm, the engine just doesn't want to rev out. I have the Pulsar and Gibson exhaust, AFE dry filter (not CAI) and a throttle body spacer...a lot will scoff at the spacer, but I noticed a difference in hill climbs and a bump in mpg. I have 26,000 miles on my truck in a year and average 18.5-19 mpg in mixed driving with 35's and a several weight adding mods...but I disagree emphatically that 4,000+ rpm is in the usable range in the 3.6L Pentastar. Any performance mods I make are for fuel savings in this engine, not power because you just won't ever feel it. I had a 2012 JKR with 3.6L MT with similar mods all for fuel savings, not power.

Hey Steve,

I guess what I should have said is that our intake maintains peak torque and power in the same range as the stock intake, though we did make about 5 hp in the high 3K RPM range as well.

And the way these engines are controlled and fueled, the best mod to improve MPGs is going to be a lighter right foot

Thanks!
-Steve

 

[cgflyer]

I didn't want to mention it, but since you opened that can of worms. Just going by the dyno charts posted it would appear that HP and torque are lower at normal operating range. Which is that 1500-3000 RPM range where you spend most of your time driving normally and wheeling.

A pulsar and ported throttle body would make more sense.

I have mixed feelings on my Pulsar. I get a CEL and other lights and limp mode about every 7,000 miles or so and it's a pain to have to pull the module before going to the dealership. I bought it to calibrate tire size and for the tunes, but once Banks or Bullydog or someone else offers an OBDII tuner, I will switch. I was always skeptical about throttle body spacers, but bought mine cheap on Amazon for a "what can it hurt" thing...actually had it for over 6 months before installing it and so far, no complaints. It could be doing nothing, but I think it is helping in climbs and slight increase in mpg, but with my RTT on, it doesn't really matter haha.

 

[KurtP]

In closed loop operation, the ecu determines how much fuel to add based on feedback from the o2 sensors. If a restriction is removed or flow is improved, that gives more air at the same throttle angle, power will increase. Short term fuel trim will add or remove whatever fuel is required to hit target. Over time, long term fuel trim will add a portion of this change to the openloop fueling tables.

you can improve mileage if you are able to reach a higher speed than before at the same throttle angle, and you could even alter the o2 sensor signal by a fraction of a volt to make the ecu think its running lean and end up with a 13.8afr and improve mileage.

the best way to answer these question is understanding how adaptation tables work and then to test it. See what power something makes or loses at a 20% throttle angle, and then see what mac speed you can attain on the dyno before and after again at 20% throttle angle.

this will tell you if youve improved efficiency.

i want to find an improved airbox(cold air) that can still match up to a snorkel.

 

[Puch]

I am still searching for a New Gladiator. Too impatient to order one...

BUT question is about Cold Air Intakes. Has anyone tried these with a Gladiator? I plan to trade in my 2018 Sahara so I don't want to invest the money into something I don't plan on having much longer.

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with CAI mods.

Sal

I’m not an expert. Just speaking from experience. Don’t wast your money. I’ve installed CAI on several vehicles. Each time I thought “this time it will make a difference”. The only thing that changes is the sound. No noticeable HP or MGP gains.
From what I understand, snorkels are the only thing that make a difference and only when you’re driving at a decent speed. Kinda like a ram air effect.

 

[DanW]

I've offered up my Jeep JL 3.6 as a gunea pig for any brand wanting to show actual hp gains. My nephew owns 4Piston Racing and he's offered up his brand new Dyna Pro dynamometer to do the analysis. And it would be done right, by experts. No takers, so far. I offered that up to the catch can companies, too, as many of their customers claim improved hp. No takers there, either. I even told them I'd immediately purchase their products if even very modest gains show up.

It seems these days the OEM's know what they are doing when it comes to this stuff.

 

[Riccochet]

^^ That.

Intakes, exhaust, bolt ons in general don't do much without tuning to support them. Like on my Ram. I can drop $1700 on a Vararam intake, long tube headers, Y pipe and 87mm throttle body for a staggering 10-15 HP gain. BUT, if I add custom tuning those mods add another 30'ish HP on top of the 40 HP that tuning alone gets me. In the world of computer controlled engines the computer isn't going to know you bolted those things on unless you program it to make use of them.

Tuning is the best bang for the buck mod you can do.

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