Coil spring part numbers

[KurtP]

I thought it was previously said that rhe last 3 #’s was the spring rate but that doesnt seem to be the case.

Sponsored

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Just going by what I've seen, the more complicated, the more chance for mistakes. There production line logistics must be incredible to get so many different part numbers to the right truck on the line, of course with scanners now, as long as the tag is right, they can have lots of checks as it goes down the line. To think of the original Ford Model T, all exactly the same, no options and no color choice, to now were you have one line making, I've lost count of models, started with 4, 2021 added several more models, all coming off the same assembly line with 1,000's of different part combinations. What a change computers have made.

There have been different left and right springs since at least the late 1960s.
I've posted before about the page after page of spring part numbers AMC had for 1970-73 Javelins alone.
There were at least 3 suspension options on the AMX, 4 for the Javelin depending on engine, AC or not Go Pak or not, etc., with left and right springs.
For Eagle there were also different left and right springs - although REPLACEMENTS offered by other parties always fit "either side", the originals had different part numbers.

Note here, an original 1970 spring with original part number tag how even then, the last 3 digits were the ones picked out and enlarged. So what Jeep is doing today dates back to at least 1970 AMC days.

 

[Murgatroid]

There have been different left and right springs since at least the late 1960s.
I've posted before about the page after page of spring part numbers AMC had for 1970-73 Javelins alone.
There were at least 3 suspension options on the AMX, 4 for the Javelin depending on engine, AC or not Go Pak or not, etc., with left and right springs.
For Eagle there were also different left and right springs - although REPLACEMENTS offered by other parties always fit "either side", the originals had different part numbers.

Note here, an original 1970 spring with original part number tag how even then, the last 3 digits were the ones picked out and enlarged. So what Jeep is doing today dates back to at least 1970 AMC days.

Never thought about it, of course never changed springs, never really had a vehicle where you even thought about changing springs.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Never thought about it, of course never changed springs, never really had a vehicle where you even thought about changing springs.

I replaced all springs on my SX4 as 3 were broken when I got that car (it had been abused and the driver must had weighed 500 pounds based on the front seat and extended seat belt), had trouble with a new Eagle wagon "leaning left" (oh, please don't go there!) and AMC ended up replacing springs, also replaced the rears on my 70 Javelin and restored the appearance of the front springs, powder coated them and applied new labels. I replaced all 4 springs under my 73 - the rear leafs were ruined by rust and sitting, the fronts were broken.
Then I've removed and put back many springs while rebuilding front suspensions on various cars.
But seriously, the parts books I have all show multiple springs for each model based on options and such - and different springs for left vs right.

 

[basicGlad]

Max tow rear springs I put under mine -
444AB for driver/left side
445AB for right/passenger side

What's the difference between AC VS AB?

My springs are
68341444AC
68341443AC

 

[ShadowsPapa]

What's the difference between AC VS AB?

My springs are
68341444AC
68341443AC

A change in part number - one, AB, for example, superseded by the AC part. Could be finish, could be the dampening material on it, who knows.......

 

[basicGlad]

I saw a Sport S, standard tow package, with spring numbers: 324AB, 325AB. 438AC, 439AC

438AC & 439AC are lower than my 443AC & 444AC

I forget what higher number is, I think heavier. I'm trying to figure out what will give more payload my max payload springs from a manual transmission no tow package or the Rubicon springs I have.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

I saw a Sport S, standard tow package, with spring numbers: 324AB, 325AB. 438AC, 439AC

438AC & 439AC are lower than my 443AC & 444AC

I forget what higher number is, I think heavier. I'm trying to figure out what will give more payload my max payload springs from a manual transmission no tow package or the Rubicon springs I have.

Whoa - you can NOT increase payload with springs! PERIOD.
There's at least a half dozen or so other threads on this dating back over a year. All you can do is prevent some sag, make it sit or ride differently but SPRINGS are not what gives you payload.
There's also not a "max payload" version of these. Max tow is the thing - but not max payload.
The max tow version does have the highest payload rating of any of them, but it's not springs that do it.
Not sure where you are getting the term "max payload" as Jeep doesn't market or label that way.

Whatever the number is on your DOOR STICKER is your payload - period. You can not increase that, especially not LEGALLY.
IF you go over that number and something breaks - you just messed up.
If you are over that and have an accident - you just messed up.

I'd do some searching for those other threads that explain it.
You can reduce sag with springs, maybe even give it a touch of lift with heavier Rubicon springs - but don't go over that weight rating on the door sticker. Springs don't change that one bit.
Read the maximum payload number from the sticker on the door frame (the opening, rearmost driver door opening) Whatever that number is is what YOUR truck can carry and you must take passengers, driver, whatever you add to the truck, as part of that number.
If it says 1500, then that's it, that's your max. Springs won't raise it.

 

[KurtP]

I am aware of a story about one guy who got jammed up in a Tacoma for being overweight, but I don't know all the details of how and why beyond the friend of a friend story. I posted it before but took it down on account of not having first hand access to the facts.

generally speaking

-DOT generally goes by tire load and axle rating, and doesnt care a whole lot about gvwr.

-NHTSA does generally care about GVWR, but only applies it to manufacturers and "alterers" (people who modify a vehicle prior to dealer sale or as a stand alone company; think AEV or airstream or up-armoring companies) they dont care what end users do.

-state and local laws govern the penalties for overweight vehicles, and the fines for overweight vehicles themselves is generally extremely small. It is also generally just applied to commercial vehicles. Sometimes its just a civil penalty and not even a misdemeanor

-springs *DO* come into account for GVWR and payload, although simply altering the springs yourself does not change the value of the door sticker.

-you *CAN* alter the GVWR of your vehicle through your manufacturer (assuming they are willing to do it) by making changes to the vehicle...brakes, tires, springs, cooling, etc depending on what the manufacturer requires to re-tag the vehicle. Good luck doing that as john q public, however. Ford does it all the time, I do not know about FCA.

-if you are over GVWR, AND at fault for a crash, AND that fault had a direct nexus to negligently modifying the vehicle over gvwr then yes, it adds factors to civil liability, but most people do that the moment they put a bumper that isnt pedestrian tested on their vehicle, and we dont see threads about that...so......

One big reason to stay under GVWR i can think of is border crossings. It is possible at times to get turned around at a border checkpoint if your vehicle is over GVWR if they decide to weigh it. If your total GVWR is still under a special license requirement and within the axle/tire load rating, they may let you go. Ive had it go both ways.

I've generally found that if the truck doesnt LOOK like it's driving over weight and isnt packed like a jingle truck or a khat truck, and looks "well thought out" that is enough to get by 90% of curious george's. if you have shit hanging off every corner of the truck and the back end is sagging and the muffler is broken and loud and it just looks like a dangerous shit box rolling down the road, your chances of getting hassled or turned around are, in my experience, greater. If the truck is built well and packed well and within axle/tire ratings, ive generally found youre fine. Sometimes -depending where you are in the world- a smile, pat on the back, a funny joke or story, and a discrete benjamin takes care of any...imperial entanglements.... ;-)

 

[ShadowsPapa]

A co-worker was pulled over as he crossed a state border on his way back from a dog show. They weighed his pickup truck, overweight on rear axle. He was really ticked and fought it and won but it cost him some time and heartburn. I believe it was Iowa "enforcement" officer that stopped him.

 

[KurtP]

you can never underestimate the desires of police to enforce. It's what theyre there for, its what they love, and its way easier to write john q public a traffic citation of some kind than doing criminal work. Many states allow police departments to put traffic fines, or a portion of, back into their own budget coffers.

Re your buddy, he must have been really overweight to justify fighting the citation, based on the Iowa fines.

 

[basicGlad]

@KurtP dont forget about civil asset forfeiture abuse

Whoa - you can NOT increase payload with springs! PERIOD.

SPRINGS are not what gives you payload.

The max tow version does have the highest payload rating of any of them, but it's not springs that do it.

Jeep doesn't market or label that way.

Springs don't change that one bit.

Read the maximum payload number from the sticker on the door frame
Springs won't raise it.

Thank you for all the info. I know Duallys (dualies?) exist because of payload so it makes sense tires have more to do with payload than springs.


Jeep advertises 1700lbs as the Gladiator's max payload on their website but also you're correct they're not marketing a max payload config or spec. I only call mine max payload because

Of the 2020 brochure (top right box) where the Sport S manual no tow package is listed as 1600lbs. My door sticker says 747kgs (1646lbs).

The only thing I'm not sure you're saying is correct (I'm open to being wrong, that's why I'm here - learning) is that max tow has max payload. I've never seen a max tow with as much legal payload listed on the door sticker as me. I think max tow has engine cooling I don't (bigger fan).

Ultimately what I'm trying to get to the bottom of: am I better using my max payload springs or the Rubicon take off springs I have? There are not a lot of sport s manuals with no tow package out there

Generally speaking

-springs *DO* come into account for GVWR and payload, although simply altering the springs yourself does not change the value of the door sticker.

-you *CAN* alter the GVWR of your vehicle through your manufacturer (assuming they are willing to do it) by making changes to the vehicle...brakes, tires, springs, cooling, etc depending on what the manufacturer requires to re-tag the vehicle. Good luck doing that as john q public, however. Ford does it all the time, I do not know about FCA.

So who is correct? @ShadowsPapa or @KurtP? Springs have no effect or they do effect payload?

I'm not talking door sticker number. I know printed ink cannot magically change.

 

[KurtP]

@KurtP dont forget about civil asset forfeiture abuse




Thank you for all the info. I know Duallys (dualies?) exist because of payload so it makes sense tires have more to do with payload than springs.


Jeep advertises 1700lbs as the Gladiator's max payload on their website but also you're correct they're not marketing a max payload config or spec. I only call mine max payload because

Of the 2020 brochure (top right box) where the Sport S manual no tow package is listed as 1600lbs. My door sticker says 747kgs (1646lbs).

The only thing I'm not sure you're saying is correct (I'm open to being wrong, that's why I'm here - learning) is that max tow has max payload. I've never seen a max tow with as much legal payload listed on the door sticker as me. I think max tow has engine cooling I don't (bigger fan).

Ultimately what I'm trying to get to the bottom of: am I better using my max payload springs or the Rubicon take off springs I have? There are not a lot of sport s manuals with no tow package out there



So who is correct? @ShadowsPapa or @KurtP? Springs have no effect or they do effect payload?

I'm not talking door sticker number. I know printed ink cannot magically change.

dont get me started on “civil asset forfeiture”. Just. Uhg.

im not trying to be a dick, but after having gone through the builds of literally dozens of armored vehicles used in half a dozen countries on 3 continents to include the US, I know what im talking about.

papa isnt wrong in the sense that no, changing a spring does not mean your truck suddenly has a higher legal gvwr. But spring rate relative to load carrying capacity IS a *PART* of gvwr.

dont get wrapped up on what the brochures say.
-look at your gvwr on YOUR door sticker
-look at your axle ratings front and rear
-look at your factory tire load ratings.

those are your legal maxes, and i dont suggest going over them. Changing parts does not change what your truck is legally rated for.

if you want to carry more weight on your own impetus knowing the possible ramifications, the way many people do it is increase the load rating of the tires they use and increase to stiffer springs, larger brakes, and better cooling.

gvwr takes into account various options, as mentioned. All things being equal, two of the same trucks with all else the same, the stiffer sprung one will haul more.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Springs are part of the equation. So is the axle rating, the width, the tires, the cooling, axle ratio, etc.
If your truck is rated 1600- I'd keep it as it is. Rubicon isn't rated for the tow or payload of a sport S
Why would you replace springs under a truck with the highest rating with springs from a truck with a lower rating?
Your truck is made to haul 1600 pounds (total) why mess with that?

 

[ShadowsPapa]

But spring rate relative to load carrying capacity IS a *PART* of gvwr.

Yes - it's for sure part of it. It's a system, an equation. Not a single part. And you were correct in TIRES - that's a big deal that people overlook.

In this case, if your truck is rated with a door sticker (and in the book) to a payload of 1600 pounds, why would you put springs from a vehicle with a lower payload rating under it?
I put max tow Sport S springs under mine - not to increase payload, but because they are progressive and handle the weight better than the more mushy Overland springs made for a nice ride on the highway.
All I wanted was less sag and a good ride with the 1,000 pound payload.

Bernie - he'd fight something on principal. You should have heard his rant and what he called that guy. There was more to it at one point as well. If the fine was 10 bucks, he'd fight it.
He got nailed another time because he was delivering dogs out of state and the enforcement officer said he was trucking for hire and needed a CDL, etc. - wow, that REALLY got him going!!

Sponsored