Payload Questions

[LostWoods]

The GVWR varies between the diesel and gas versions. I think I got this info from a video produced by Brad at Trail Recon (remember that payload can vary depending on options):

	Gas Rubicon	Ecodiesel Rubicon
GVWR	6,250	6,450
Payload	1,174	973
Curb Weight	5,076	5,477

An overloaded vehicle will struggle to recover from an emergency maneuver at highway speed. The weight will overwhelm the suspension, possibly resulting in flipping the truck. If your insurance company figures out that the vehicle was overloaded they may not reimburse you. If the accident involves other parties, you could be liable for whatever losses they suffer (to property or life). If you found yourself in this situation, you would be wishing you had (1) made more trips with a lighter load, (2) bought a cheap trailer for hauling, or (3) rented a U-Haul.

Right that wasn't GVWR, it was GAWR. The axle max for every Gladiator is exactly the same according to Jeep and I frankly can't find anything different between models that justifies such a GVWR and payload difference when even the base level towing capability is 4,500 lbs.

But the reality is that within reason, where that weight is will have more an impact than how much there is. If it's all distributed at bumper level it's going to make far less an impact than it would in the bed or up high. While I agree it's a risk, no insurance company is going to balk unless you are grossly abusing weight or driving in an unsafe manner.

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[stickshifter]

Right that wasn't GVWR, it was GAWR. The axle max for every Gladiator is exactly the same according to Jeep and I frankly can't find anything different between models that justifies such a GVWR and payload difference when even the base level towing capability is 4,500 lbs.

Gotcha! Sorry I missed that!

 

[be77solo]

Small Utility trailer with a single 3500# axle is my solution for heavier loads. Trailer doesn’t cost much, tows smooth and easy, easier to load and unload.

And, keeps you legal should there be an accident or state trooper….

Regarding why a Sport S hauls 400lbs more than a Sport??

 

[ACAD_Cowboy]

Does anyone else find it funny the GAWR is identical across the line? IMO there's zero reason these trucks should have varied GVWR other than maybe the 3.73 ratio not being up to snuff but that makes no sense because towing.

The axle rating is constant because the axles are constant, all dana 44 all the way. The vehicle rating "should" be constant but we have variables of tire load rating, transmission type and suspension tuning.

Think about what makes a good offroad vehicle good offroad; long soft springs, long slow dampers and big soft tires. All of these are things you would not want when you are loaded to the gills at highway speed. These same factors also effect towing capacity numbers and it's what a Ram 2500 tows and carries more than a Ram Power Wagon despite identical as matters option sheets.

Likewise, payload is controlled by options effecting curb weight and suspension tuning. Saying your max tow sport has a 1600lb payload conveniently sidesteps the soft top, manual windows and rental car interior. Every pound you add in curb weight is a pound lost in payload.

The manual transmission is rated lower overall despite weighing less and this is likely a combination of the holding power of the clutch pack and the relative strength of the weakest power bearing components in the transmission.

All in all while it is classed as a small truck it's not terribly truck like so everything needs to be asterisked with a tiny note saying * not bad for a jeep.

 

[be77solo]

The manual transmission is rated lower overall despite weighing less and this is likely a combination of the holding power of the clutch pack and the relative strength of the weakest power bearing components in the transmission.

Good post, and I agree with you overall.

But in that chart, the HIGHEST payload of all is the manual Sport S…. ?

And the same truck Sport, without power locks and windows, so even lighter, can only do 1200? I wasn’t aware the “S” beefed anything up.

Seems like marketing to me and Jeep wanted one model to hit 1600lbs…..what am I missing?

 

[ACAD_Cowboy]

It could be, and this is just a lark, the springs and shocks that the sport s wears account for the highest possible load out while still being a sport s. A sport is limited in what you can option and once you go overland and beyond, the stack gets considerably heavy and/or the suspensions change completely.

 

[be77solo]

It could be, and this is just a lark, the springs and shocks that the sport s wears account for the highest possible load out while still being a sport s. A sport is limited in what you can option and once you go overland and beyond, the stack gets considerably heavy and/or the suspensions change completely.

Maybe ha, but I still don't see it.... Nobody is looking for these hardcore Sport S springs ha (or maybe I should be??).... Just funny that exact split on that chart.

They picked the lightest trim to get their marketing number of 1600lbs, but then neutered the cheapest to push some to the next upgrade. For the same truck minus power windows and locks.

I could be nuts, maybe lol, but...? I don't see anyone looking for a "Sport S" suspension.

 

[Kevin_D]

I could be nuts, maybe lol, but...? I don't see anyone looking for a "Sport S" suspension.

That’s because Jeep guys are looking to change the ride characteristics for off-road or improved handling, not for increased payload.
Most modders are going for a better Jeep, not a better truck.

Kevin

 

[ShadowsPapa]

Does anyone else find it funny the GAWR is identical across the line? IMO there's zero reason these trucks should have varied GVWR other than maybe the 3.73 ratio not being up to snuff but that makes no sense because towing.

As long as you're respecting your axle ratings and don't mind riding on bumpstops, the weight will probably be fine as long as you're not bombing down the freeway at 80+

You may have missed my post about truck center of gravity, axle width and other factors engineers use when they have to put these through their paces with various weights. There's actually an SAE process followed. People grossly over-simplify thinking it's about gear ratios, truck weight and axle rating. It's a very complex set of actual real world testing that goes into it.

 

[ShadowsPapa]

The GVWR varies between the diesel and gas versions. I think I got this info from a video produced by Brad at Trail Recon (remember that payload can vary depending on options):

	Gas Rubicon	Ecodiesel Rubicon
GVWR	6,250	6,450
Payload	1,174	973
Curb Weight	5,076	5,477

An overloaded vehicle will struggle to recover from an emergency maneuver at highway speed. The weight will overwhelm the suspension, possibly resulting in flipping the truck. If your insurance company figures out that the vehicle was overloaded they may not reimburse you. If the accident involves other parties, you could be liable for whatever losses they suffer (to property or life). If you found yourself in this situation, you would be wishing you had (1) made more trips with a lighter load, (2) bought a cheap trailer for hauling, or (3) rented a U-Haul.

Check my post in another thread where I do quote the paces these are run through to get their rating. It's not just math about weight and gear ratios. And I also posted where an attorney says you CAN be charged for anything that goes wrong if you are towing overweight or your payload is overweight. One mentions a federal law as well.
If you lose control while overloaded, you can be ticketed and even charged with negligence.

 

[LostWoods]

You may have missed my post about truck center of gravity, axle width and other factors engineers use when they have to put these through their paces with various weights. There's actually an SAE process followed. People grossly over-simplify thinking it's about gear ratios, truck weight and axle rating. It's a very complex set of actual real world testing that goes into it.

While I agree in concept, the ratings of the various trucks indicate to me this is more likely a shell game of margins in the money making sense. There is an opportunity to up-sell and Jeep is taking advantage of it.

it's obviously not the frame or engine because they're identical across the line. It's not cooling or gearing because the truck is expected to tow 4k in every trim. If axle width made a difference, the 6MT wouldn't have the highest payload in the lineup. If the AT was the culprit, the max tow wouldn't have a GCVR well over twice the curb weight. It's not brakes because Jeep would have to anticipate someone towing near the legal limit in most states of 1,500lbs trailer without brakes which means it can stop that safely.

That leaves suspension and having driven the entire lineup I just don't see even the soft Overland suspension making all that much a difference in GVWR.

 

[LostWoods]

The axle rating is constant because the axles are constant, all dana 44 all the way. The vehicle rating "should" be constant but we have variables of tire load rating, transmission type and suspension tuning.

Think about what makes a good offroad vehicle good offroad; long soft springs, long slow dampers and big soft tires. All of these are things you would not want when you are loaded to the gills at highway speed. These same factors also effect towing capacity numbers and it's what a Ram 2500 tows and carries more than a Ram Power Wagon despite identical as matters option sheets.

Likewise, payload is controlled by options effecting curb weight and suspension tuning. Saying your max tow sport has a 1600lb payload conveniently sidesteps the soft top, manual windows and rental car interior. Every pound you add in curb weight is a pound lost in payload.

The manual transmission is rated lower overall despite weighing less and this is likely a combination of the holding power of the clutch pack and the relative strength of the weakest power bearing components in the transmission.

All in all while it is classed as a small truck it's not terribly truck like so everything needs to be asterisked with a tiny note saying * not bad for a jeep.

But see that's what's fucky to me. Simply changing to the 6MT suddenly nets you 500# in GVWR. Same axles, same gears, same literally everything but maybe the suspension.

So my argument is that while you cannot change the door tag, upgrading the suspension should allow you to carry as much as the best Gladiator minus your added curb weight. Or, what I think is actually true, is that Jeep de-rated the other ATs in the lineup because they wanted to move max tow packages which net higher margins. The MT was untouched because there's no equivalent upsell there.

 

[Sal's Dad]

You may have missed my post about truck center of gravity, axle width and other factors engineers use when they have to put these through their paces with various weights. There's actually an SAE process followed. People grossly over-simplify thinking it's about gear ratios, truck weight and axle rating. It's a very complex set of actual real world testing that goes into it.

I might buy this "The Engineers know their stuff" argument, if Jeep didn't flat-out lie in their published specs. This is the table (for my vehicle) that I relied on in purchasing. Look a bit closer at the numbers, and it is clear they don't know their a$$ from their elbow... My bad, for trusting "the engineers" to tell the truth.

 

[Firestarter]

The axle rating is constant because the axles are constant, all dana 44 all the way. The vehicle rating "should" be constant but we have variables of tire load rating, transmission type and suspension tuning.

Think about what makes a good offroad vehicle good offroad; long soft springs, long slow dampers and big soft tires. All of these are things you would not want when you are loaded to the gills at highway speed. These same factors also effect towing capacity numbers and it's what a Ram 2500 tows and carries more than a Ram Power Wagon despite identical as matters option sheets.

Likewise, payload is controlled by options effecting curb weight and suspension tuning. Saying your max tow sport has a 1600lb payload conveniently sidesteps the soft top, manual windows and rental car interior. Every pound you add in curb weight is a pound lost in payload.

The manual transmission is rated lower overall despite weighing less and this is likely a combination of the holding power of the clutch pack and the relative strength of the weakest power bearing components in the transmission.

All in all while it is classed as a small truck it's not terribly truck like so everything needs to be asterisked with a tiny note saying * not bad for a jeep.

I forget where, but I heard on a video from a Jeep engineer that it was the clutch torque rating that limits the 6spd's tow rating

 

[Firestarter]

But see that's what's fucky to me. Simply changing to the 6MT suddenly nets you 500# in GVWR. Same axles, same gears, same literally everything but maybe the suspension.

So my argument is that while you cannot change the door tag, upgrading the suspension should allow you to carry as much as the best Gladiator minus your added curb weight. Or, what I think is actually true, is that Jeep de-rated the other ATs in the lineup because they wanted to move max tow packages which net higher margins. The MT was untouched because there's no equivalent upsell there.

The door sticker is for a stock vehicle. The second you change anything it no longer describes your rated capacity. ie: if you put on passenger tires and run them at 20psig then you no longer have the same ratings.

Chevy lost tow rating on the ZR2 because of the bumper affecting air flow... "supposedly."

But it's impossible to maintain the "factory" tow rating since you have wear on parts, different tire pressures (always changing), loads that can be harder to tow such as lesser aerodynamic trailers vs more aerodynamic ones.

I believe the ratings are based on the Society of Automotive Engineers J2807 standard which is an industry standard and not a governmental regulation. Thus, if you upgrade your gearing, cooling, tires, & suspension to handle the extra load and you can articulate this, then your vehicle exceeds industry standards.

You also have to understand that non-commercial vehicles aren't held to the same standards and regulations... So expecting someone to weight their payload is very unrealistic. Insurance companies are also not spending tens of thousands of dollars on crash reconstruction to screw you out of your policy coverage which would most likely get them sued for bad-faith.

So what's reasonable? Well, my JTR's sticker says my GAWR combines to 6850lbs. My tires are rated at 2,755lbs @ 50psig each, so my axle rating is the lowest link. Does the payload eat up all of the suspension? Well, if you add air springs then you can safely suspend the load up to the axle rating. Does the vehicle struggle to accelerate? No, because it can safely accelerate with 7000 lbs hooked behind it, and this goes for the cooling as well. Does the suspension behave unsafely and necessitate a stronger damper? Well, if it is rated for a 7k lbs trailer then I believe the shocks are more than adequate.

In the end, I would be comfortable maxing out my axle ratings if I am running 40/45psig, have rear air springs, and understand the load is safest as far front in the bed as possible.

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