We’re screwed! [ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS. MEMBERS BANNED]

[CampThree]

I bought an F250 King Ranch new in 2017 for $59K sold it private party in 2023 with 10,000 miles for $55K. Granted a Super Duty is in a different vehicle class, low miles and a private party sale but it's possible to not gent bent over too bad but timing and who you sell it to matter. There's an ass for every seat!

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[Badunit]

When dealerships were demanding and getting additional dealer markup on everyday autos (like Tacomas and F250s), you could tell something wasn't right with the market. I was ready to buy right as Covid hit but ended up waiting a few years due to low inventory, stupid prices, and year-long waits for a factory order (from Ford, I had been looking at F150s). I'd have waited another year but I don't like the direction vehicles are going these days with more and more electronics , ridiculously large touch screens that get larger each year, and LED headlights (which I absolutely hate) becoming standard on lower and lower trims.

 

[Gatorac]

I just want to know when the 392 conversion is going to start being discounted.....

 

[Deleted member 57233]

Here in CA, on 09/28/23, Governor Newsom signed AB No. 1228 into law which meant the minimum wage for fast food workers is $20/hour. Yes, workers at McDonalds are making more than your average bookkeeper or entry mechanic. The answer? Have some spaghetti at home instead of a Big Mac.

If a bookkeeper or mechanic of any kind is making less than $20 an hour in California, then they are idiots and deserve to make less than fast food workers.

 

[Scott L]

Bottom line we're screwed but it's because the fed has printed over 27 trillion dollars over the last fifteen years that is so much malinvestment it unfathomable. That has to go somewhere it comes out as inflation. Always has and always will. It's a silent tax on middle class and poor people. That being said no one held a gun to anyone's head and made us buy any vehicle. The only entity capable of gouging is the state as if you dont pay they will put you in jail or take your stuff. I had a perfectly functioning hybrid Fusion that I traded on my Gladiator not because it made financial sense but because I wanted something different. Now my insurance came down significantly because of the high cost to repair a hybrid I presume but also my annual registration came down because Virginia puts a surcharge on high efficiency vehicles to make up for fuel taxes you won't be paying. Honestly that was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm not about to be penalized for driving a fuel efficient boring AF car. So was going to be a Gladiator or a Mustang. Gladiator won. The money I save in speeding tickets is going into my Gladiator. Win win.

 

[MPMB]

Here in CA, on 09/28/23, Governor Newsom signed AB No. 1228 into law which meant the minimum wage for fast food workers is $20/hour. Yes, workers at McDonalds are making more than your average bookkeeper or entry mechanic. The answer? Have some spaghetti at home instead of a Big Mac.

It means workers will be replaced with automated kiosks and mobile orders. The fast food/fast casual industry is going to break eventually. The stores aren't designed to be dine-in, take-out, and drive-thru.

The forced rising tide lifts all boats mentality of CA and other states/locations (Seattle) is short-sighted and ignores the actual problem. Costs skyrocketing.

Also, most minimum wage jobs are not careers. They're there to learn how to work. Those that work there for a career progress through the ranks, which pay decent salaries.

In Seattle there's a local burger joint called Dick's Hamburgers. It's like In & Out, if it was cheaper and quicker. They have always paid above minimum wage; last time I saw it was about $22/hr. Benefits, tuition reimbursement. And up until 10 years ago (maybe?), they were cash only. Workers knew the totals in their head.

 

[hickman785]

Now I know why my 2022 JT with 8,000 miles that I bought in 2021 is worth practically nothing!! I paid $54K and dumped over $7K into it like a sucker! Now the most I can get towards a trade in is $33K. Something needs to change! Trucks full size or JT’s should NOT cost this much!

Mine dropped $12k in one week last year...it just happened to be the week I was going to trade it...mine shows a trade value of $23k and dropping every week, yet the dealers have them just like it, used, for $40k...it should be illegal what they do

 

[DirkG]

If a bookkeeper or mechanic of any kind is making less than $20 an hour in California, then they are idiots and deserve to make less than fast food workers.

Friend of mine is a regional director for Pep Boys. You and I may scoff at Pep Boys, but far too many Moms drop their cars off there.

Here's a little clip from Indeed.com; avg salary was $21.86 with many below $20. Yep, instead of flipping tires they should be flipping burgers. ?

 

[GEETCH]

I really dont understand the obsession with the vehicles value after purchase. When we all bought our Jeeps, we felt it was worth the value or we wouldnt have made the purchase. Now did i "over pay" for mine? that depends. i dont think so, part of the reason i bought it.

I never bought a vehicle with resale in mind especially if i am going to go through the effort and funds to customize it for my needs and wants. 99.9% of vehicles are not an investment, but a liability. as far as the prices being outrageous, well there are a lot of factors to that, many of the economy side has already been discussed, the other side of that coin is the consumer.

why is it 15 dollars for a beer and 10 dollars for a hotdog at a ball game? because even when they complain about the price being to high, they are standing in line to pay it.

point being, most consumers now want all the tech stuff, comfort, convenience etc in their vehicles, a living room on wheels and wonder why its so expensive. here is an interesting contrast and though its not jeep the idea still applies:

1980 Ford F 150 MSRP $7119 inflation adj $17914.72
available trims: Custom, Ranger, Ranger XLT and Ranger Lariat
ENGINE HORSEPOWER TORQUE
300C IL6 118-122 @3400RPM 223FT/LB @1600RPM
302C V8 133 HP @3400RPM 243FT/LB @2400RPM
351C V8 136 HP @3400RPM 263FT/LB @2000RPM

Regular Cab or SuperCab
Styleside or Flareside
6ft or 8ft bed
4x2 or 4x4
4 speed selectshift auto or 4 speed manual
option for AM/FM stereo with cassette or 8 track
Payload
Reg Cab 1775-2675 lbs
Sup Cab 1950-2400 lbs

1980 National price of a house: $47,200

2023 national price of a house: depending on state - $412,000
starting prices for a 2023 F-150:
XL: $33,835
XLT: $41,940
Lariat: $57,480
King Ranch: $63,225
Platinum: $64,915
Limited: $83,010
Tremor: $61,330
Raptor: $76,775

all without options yet, however standard equipment far exceeds what was even considered top of the line optioned out 1980 F-150.

3.5L V6 ecoboost 450 HP with 510ft/lb torque
5.2L supercharged V8 700HP and 640ft/lb torque

the list of available options and combinations is way to ridiculous to post here, and the tech that's included is insane compared to only 43 years ago. Now we are in an age of self driving cars etc.

when you actually stop and think about the development that has gone into the improvements, convince, tech etc to meet the demands, it really isnt too far fetched now for a decent vehicle to be mid 40k to 50k range, with the 70k to 100+k for "high end" vehicles fully loaded.

on a word, PERSPECTIVE.

and the only time it will really affect you or "screw you" is if you decide to sell or trade up. people trade their phones in every year for the new model, and i have some friends that do it with cars too, been under a car payment for 20yrs because they just swap it in a year, i dont get it, but to each their own.

Rant over.

 

[Digster]

Over 20,000 new 2023 Gladiators remain unsold.

My lease is up - fully satisfied but not worth the buy out price.

 

[WILDHOBO]

Well it’s insane how a new Jeep Gladiator costs over $75,000! They’re not the only ones though. Full size trucks have gotten WAY WAY overpriced.

So just keep the one you have.

 

[WILDHOBO]

I really dont understand the obsession with the vehicles value after purchase. When we all bought our Jeeps, we felt it was worth the value or we wouldnt have made the purchase. Now did i "over pay" for mine? that depends. i dont think so, part of the reason i bought it.

I never bought a vehicle with resale in mind especially if i am going to go through the effort and funds to customize it for my needs and wants. 99.9% of vehicles are not an investment, but a liability. as far as the prices being outrageous, well there are a lot of factors to that, many of the economy side has already been discussed, the other side of that coin is the consumer.

why is it 15 dollars for a beer and 10 dollars for a hotdog at a ball game? because even when they complain about the price being to high, they are standing in line to pay it.

point being, most consumers now want all the tech stuff, comfort, convenience etc in their vehicles, a living room on wheels and wonder why its so expensive. here is an interesting contrast and though its not jeep the idea still applies:

1980 Ford F 150 MSRP $7119 inflation adj $17914.72
available trims: Custom, Ranger, Ranger XLT and Ranger Lariat
ENGINE HORSEPOWER TORQUE
300C IL6 118-122 @3400RPM 223FT/LB @1600RPM
302C V8 133 HP @3400RPM 243FT/LB @2400RPM
351C V8 136 HP @3400RPM 263FT/LB @2000RPM

Regular Cab or SuperCab
Styleside or Flareside
6ft or 8ft bed
4x2 or 4x4
4 speed selectshift auto or 4 speed manual
option for AM/FM stereo with cassette or 8 track
Payload
Reg Cab 1775-2675 lbs
Sup Cab 1950-2400 lbs

1980 National price of a house: $47,200

2023 national price of a house: depending on state - $412,000
starting prices for a 2023 F-150:
XL: $33,835
XLT: $41,940
Lariat: $57,480
King Ranch: $63,225
Platinum: $64,915
Limited: $83,010
Tremor: $61,330
Raptor: $76,775

all without options yet, however standard equipment far exceeds what was even considered top of the line optioned out 1980 F-150.

3.5L V6 ecoboost 450 HP with 510ft/lb torque
5.2L supercharged V8 700HP and 640ft/lb torque

the list of available options and combinations is way to ridiculous to post here, and the tech that's included is insane compared to only 43 years ago. Now we are in an age of self driving cars etc.

when you actually stop and think about the development that has gone into the improvements, convince, tech etc to meet the demands, it really isnt too far fetched now for a decent vehicle to be mid 40k to 50k range, with the 70k to 100+k for "high end" vehicles fully loaded.

on a word, PERSPECTIVE.

and the only time it will really affect you or "screw you" is if you decide to sell or trade up. people trade their phones in every year for the new model, and i have some friends that do it with cars too, been under a car payment for 20yrs because they just swap it in a year, i dont get it, but to each their own.

Rant over.

Well said.

 

[Fastwake]

Chances are you probably DONT REALLY NEED A RUBICON

 

[MPMB]

<snip>

on a word, PERSPECTIVE.

and the only time it will really affect you or "screw you" is if you decide to sell or trade up. people trade their phones in every year for the new model, and i have some friends that do it with cars too, been under a car payment for 20yrs because they just swap it in a year, i dont get it, but to each their own.

Rant over.

Also, almost all vehicles in the past 20 years or so have been engineered to last 200,000+ miles with minimal maintenance. In the 70s-80s, 100k was the benchmark. Anything over that was a bonus.

Growing up, we had a '78 Chevy Blazer. In the mid 80s my dad had to put a new engine in it. It couldn't go 7 years without a major repair. My sister had a '97 Expedition that had to have the top end rebuilt when it blew spark plugs (the infamous Ford 5.3? 5.4?). My mom's 2004 Volvo XC70 went 150k with wiper motors and a headlight as the only problem.

But alas, consumerism and "keeping up with the Joneses" tend to make people pony up the dough.

 

[Willpower1]

Jeep Pricing in 4 Acts:
Act 1: Covid supply chains, shortages, etc.
Act 2: Economy restart, pent up demand + stimulus, inflation and corporate price gouging. https://fortune.com/europe/2023/12/08/greedflation-study/
Act 3 (now) : High interest rates, market corrections
Act 4 (Next Year) Jerome Power predicts Fed rate reductions. I’m curious what this will mean. Will demand come back, will prices start going back up? Will these be significant rate cuts or a few 1/4 point deals. We could be moving towards lower bound territory again. Personally 2% target rate is a historically low target rate and a bit radical. At 3.1% and moving south, we may see an actual Fed course correction.

We’ve already seen strong disinflation (reduction in the rate of inflation). It’s currently at 3.1% which is historically low. What confuses people is that prices remain high. That’s because a reduction in prices generally is actually deflation which is really bad. Lower inflation means prices go up more slowly. They don’t go down. The wild card is that a lot of the prices weren’t inflation. They were straight up price gouging. When the dust settles I wonder if economists will come to see some of the inflation rate as a function of gouging, rather than gouging + inflation equaling prices. Then the epistemological question becomes, what is inflation? Is it only rising prices as a function of natural causes or just any general increase in the price of goods minus food, fuel, housing. Of course in those 3 areas, usually too volatile to be included in inflation measurements, we also saw widespread price gouging.

I have some thoughts on all of this:

1. I think we may actually see more prices come down, as opposed to simply slowing their rise, essentially violating the disinflation/deflation conventional wisdom. Fundamentally this is because the prices were artificial and we are now in a correction. We already are, case in point: Jeeps which had reached comical levels of pricing seeing prices slashed. Not a part of core inflation, but I just paid less for diesel than I’ve ever paid to fill up my Jeep. Usually by this time of the year, I’d be well into the home heating fuel diesel price surge. Meanwhile some things, processed meat, for example, remain stubbornly high, although I don’t know where these people were getting their $100 turkeys. I paid $36 for a 18lb turkey last month and $25 for the same size bird 2 days ago.

2. This gouging factor wasn’t a U.S. low regulatory environment problem. “Inflation” everywhere else was worse and price gouging in heavily regulated Europe seems to be rampant issue as well. Of course corporations are global at this point so maybe that’s not surprising and market consolidation has happened everywhere. Fewer players in the market, means less competition, means higher prices.

3. There needs to be a consumer revolt over all of this or at least a reckoning. Businesses in a free society are free to charge whatever they want and let the invisible hand of “dollar votes” decide the state of things. But when businesses across a sector and in fact every sector raise prices together and blame it on some external boogie man, like the Inflation Monster, it’s price fixing and fraud. The CEOs of these companies need to be called to the carpet to answer for this.

4. Unfortunately the place to do that is the U.S. Congress. But members of congress benefit directly though all of their financial entanglements and corporate campaign largesse. Maybe we need something like a Consumer Union. No, not Consumer Report’s parent organization, but organized consumers with the power to put actual pressure on some of these companies. If corporations are going to collude against consumers, consumers should collude against corporations.

In some cases that’s passively what’s happened. Stelantis essentially got so greedy they priced Jeeps out of the market so people stopped buying them and they had to course correct. Personally, I’d rather set the threshold for collective consumer action quite a bit lower than $75k for a Gladiator. We’ve gotten way too used to just accepting what bullshit falls on us, whether from governments, our employers, financial institutions or the businesses we have to get everything from. We clearly cant rely on elected officials or regulators to lift a finger.

Best post I’ve read in a long time. Agree completely.

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