Clutch Recall (2/23/23): Clutch Pressure Plate May Overheat -- Affecting 70,000 Manual Jeep Wranglers and Gladiators

[DanW]

So that looks like a brand new clutch, to me. Anyone interpreting that differently?

I'm pretty happy if that is the case. I have had no issues with mine on my JL after 87,000 miles and while I am very easy on clutches with driving practices, I have not babied this Jeep. It tows, hauls, off-roads, and hauls ass. And I've taught 4 kids to drive on it. That part really ain't easy.

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[Rahkmalla]

So that looks like a brand new clutch, to me. Anyone interpreting that differently?

I mean, it's a new clutch, but to my understanding a new copy of the same clutch that's already in there so I wouldn't call it "brand new". Especially when they have already stated this is a design defect, not a potential batch of poor parts.

 

[KQL]

There also seem to be frequent reports of dealership work being performed poorly, so you may actually be worse off after the clutch recall is performed on a vehicle.

 

[DanW]

I mean, it's a new clutch, but to my understanding a new copy of the same clutch that's already in there so I wouldn't call it "brand new". Especially when they have already stated this is a design defect, not a potential batch of poor parts.

I said new clutch, not new clutch design. I'll take it. Mine has been perfect and I'm perfectly fine with replacing it at or near 100k miles, which is probably where it will be by thte time I get it.

And i'd say you are speculating. I don't think we really know exactly what changes were made. But the time spent on a solution indicates to me that they've put quite a bit of effort into it. I suspect both Aisin and Stellantis have been pretty hard at work. It is not an easy problem to diagnose, as some of the arm chair engineers around here seem to think. Only a small percentage of vehicles (0.04%) appear to have experienced the catastrophic failure. There aren't Jeeps burning at the side of every road with this.

 

[redriderjf87]

Changing a light on the dash and putting in a new clutch of the same design doesn't fix the actual issue.

Just give us some money towards a new properly designed clutch and stop dragging out this halfass CYA.

 

[DanW]

Changing a light on the dash and putting in a new clutch of the same design doesn't fix the actual issue.

Just give us some money towards a new properly designed clutch and stop dragging out this halfass CYA.

So do you know exactly what they've done? How do you know they did not change the friction material, or certain elements of the design? That document doesn't have any engineering data, from what I have seen. Nor do I see any part numbers.

I have a strong suspicion that lack of proper clutching technique led to a number of these events. But nobody EVER admits that they aren't doing it right.

 

[redriderjf87]

So do you know exactly what they've done? How do you know they did not change the friction material, or certain elements of the design? That document doesn't have any engineering data, from what I have seen. Nor do I see any part numbers.

I have a strong suspicion that lack of proper clutching technique led to a number of these events. But nobody EVER admits that they aren't doing it right.

Emotion aside:

The clutch isn't a good design: it requires additional revs because of the light flywheel, lack of engagement feel, and there's a safety recall out for it.

There wasn't a clutch recall for any other manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven, but there is for this.

Bad drivers burning their clutches has been a constant for all vehicles. There are probably a few more with the JT clutch because of its poor design.

They haven't changed the clutch design, unless you can point to something mentioned. The burden of proof of showing a design change isn't on me, it's on Jeep.


All of these points are valid.

 

[Rahkmalla]

I have a strong suspicion that lack of proper clutching technique led to a number of these events. But nobody EVER admits that they aren't doing it right.

I am of two minds on this subject:

Number one is that if improper clutch technique was solely responsible for the problem, there would be manuals of every make and type of vehicle burning on the side of the road. Obviously, that isn't happening. It's only gladiators and wranglers.

Number two is that this clutch design may be less than ideal for manual novices or those prone to bad manual habits that a more robust clutch design would tolerate better. For example: i've read complaints about clutch slippage from people who were previously accustomed to using their clutch pedal as a long term (10s of seconds) hold on a hill and they were upset they couldn't do that in their gladiator anymore. To your point, that guy also didn't admit that was wrong because it's "how he'd always done it". I've also read tons of reviews of the JL/JT manual that lead me to believe some people just don't have the touch necessary to drive a clutch with almost zero feedback.

I'm more inclined to believe Number Two, that the clutch is poor, but not bad enough to affect everyone. BUT, at the same time a clutch is a wear item. The goal of the design of a wear item on a mass-produced car shouldn't be to cater to only the most skilled among us.

I've driven many dozens of manual vehicles (spent years working at dealerships and still enjoy test driving cars on a regular basis, all manuals). Many back to back to back. There is no vehicle like my gladiator i've ever driven where I need to readjust after having driven a different manual vehicle. I still remember the first time i went to a dealership to test drive things after i'd had my glaidator for a few months; drove a miata, challenger, and camaro. Between the vehicles nothing felt noticeably different, but when I hopped back in my gladiator it felt like my clutch master cylinder had given up the ghost. Took me a good 10-15 seconds pumping it thinking "oh shit how I am i getting home" before i remembered "oh yea, it's just like that".

Have since driven corvettes, more miatas, a 124 (italian miata), mustang, older BMWs that still had manuals, a BRZ, a Slingshot, a CT4-V Blackwing... every time i get back in my gladiator since that first triple test drive I remind myself "this is going to go to the floor, and that's okay, just readjust and you'll be heel-toe rev-matching in no time".

So is there a degree of bad habits causing problems? I'm sure there is. Would i say that's the ENTIRE problem? nah. Love my JT stick, but you can love something and still recognize it's faults. Some would say to truly love something, you have to know and accept it's faults because if all you're doing is overlooking them, you're infatuated, not in love.

 

[Gatorized]

I am of two minds on this subject:

Number one is that if improper clutch technique was solely responsible for the problem, there would be manuals of every make and type of vehicle burning on the side of the road. Obviously, that isn't happening. It's only gladiators and wranglers.

Number two is that this clutch design may be less than ideal for manual novices or those prone to bad manual habits that a more robust clutch design would tolerate better. For example: i've read complaints about clutch slippage from people who were previously accustomed to using their clutch pedal as a long term (10s of seconds) hold on a hill and they were upset they couldn't do that in their gladiator anymore. To your point, that guy also didn't admit that was wrong because it's "how he'd always done it". I've also read tons of reviews of the JL/JT manual that lead me to believe some people just don't have the touch necessary to drive a clutch with almost zero feedback.

I'm more inclined to believe Number Two, that the clutch is poor, but not bad enough to affect everyone. BUT, at the same time a clutch is a wear item. The goal of the design of a wear item on a mass-produced car shouldn't be to cater to only the most skilled among us.

I've driven many dozens of manual vehicles (spent years working at dealerships and still enjoy test driving cars on a regular basis, all manuals). Many back to back to back. There is no vehicle like my gladiator i've ever driven where I need to readjust after having driven a different manual vehicle. I still remember the first time i went to a dealership to test drive things after i'd had my glaidator for a few months; drove a miata, challenger, and camaro. Between the vehicles nothing felt noticeably different, but when I hopped back in my gladiator it felt like my clutch master cylinder had given up the ghost. Took me a good 10-15 seconds pumping it thinking "oh shit how I am i getting home" before i remembered "oh yea, it's just like that".

Have since driven corvettes, more miatas, a 124 (italian miata), mustang, older BMWs that still had manuals, a BRZ, a Slingshot, a CT4-V Blackwing... every time i get back in my gladiator since that first triple test drive I remind myself "this is going to go to the floor, and that's okay, just readjust and you'll be heel-toe rev-matching in no time".

So is there a degree of bad habits causing problems? I'm sure there is. Would i say that's the ENTIRE problem? nah. Love my JT stick, but you can love something and still recognize it's faults. Some would say to truly love something, you have to know and accept it's faults because if all you're doing is overlooking them, you're infatuated, not in love.

If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it's yours. If not, it was never meant to be…
I could swing by this weekend and pick up your mojave, then we can wait and see if it ever comes back… ?

 

[JTDay]

Yeah, bad drivers or not, pressure plates shouldn't be exploding and blowing holes in the bell housing and potentially catching a vehicle on fire. The worst thing that should happen is a novice driver burning through the friction material too early in the clutches lifespan. Blame FCA, not me.

 

[ACTman]

Yeah, bad drivers or not, pressure plates shouldn't be exploding and blowing holes in the bell housing and potentially catching a vehicle on fire. The worst thing that should happen is a novice driver burning through the friction material too early in the clutches lifespan. Blame FCA, not me.

I posted this reply to a similar comment on the JLWranglerforums:

It isn't as fragile as you would think. After our testing and analysis, what's interesting is the same design isn't a common grenade on other vehicles that make a lot more power. Obviously the clamp load isn't the same on those applications but otherwise almost identical. It is more a matter of unintentional slipping for an insane amount of time. The only causes for that would be either from lack of torque capacity or preloading the clutch, like resting your foot on the clutch pedal, or possibly both. The driver is not aware because the NVH on newer Jeeps is relatively low. I am sure this is why Stellantis is focused so much on software to detect slippage.

Here are two likely scenarios for unintentional slipping: 1) With the drop in clamp load we have tested on used clutches, a slight malfunction with the ratcheting device of the self-adjusting pressure plate would lower the clamp load too far to hold enough torque. 2) With how light and vague the clutch pedal is, especially on the return stroke, I could imagine a driver not realizing his foot is still resting on the clutch pedal and preloading the clutch.

I still don't care for the OE design... The clutch feel is simply awful on the JL/JT!

 

[JTDay]

@ACTman I appreciate you openly sharing so much of your data. Cause aside, PP shouldn't be failing so badly that it blows a hole in the bell housing. Totally unacceptable mechanism of failure, IMHO, regardless of pathology. FWIW, I've had zero issues with my OE clutch, even though it behaves more like race clutches I've used than a comfy DD clutch. Such crappy clutch experience on the stock clutch.

 

[DanW]

Emotion aside:

The clutch isn't a good design: it requires additional revs because of the light flywheel, lack of engagement feel, and there's a safety recall out for it.

There wasn't a clutch recall for any other manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven, but there is for this.

Bad drivers burning their clutches has been a constant for all vehicles. There are probably a few more with the JT clutch because of its poor design.

They haven't changed the clutch design, unless you can point to something mentioned. The burden of proof of showing a design change isn't on me, it's on Jeep.


All of these points are valid.

good po9ints, but the fact is, I've had no issue with mine. So design flaw doesn't seem to apply here, unless mine somehow doesn't have it.

I really have no problem with the feel or anything. I love it. And I have a JK and Corvette with 6 speeds, and have had most of my vehicles with manuals all my life. I just don't see this one as so bad.

I can't help but wonder if the real problem is in the metalurgy of the pressure plate. I am certain that other clutches overheat and fail all the time with poor driving habits, but the pressure plates don't grenade.

I hope they've looked at that, among the other things I'm sure they've examined.

We really don't know much about the solution from the government document. Those things can be vague and have been wrongly stated and even wrongly interpreted before. So let's see what the TSB or service manual language for the recall winds up saying, including taking a look at the part numbers.

But at 87k miles, I'm still happy to get a new clutch out of the deal. I plan to keep this Jeep a long, long time.

 

[seven30]

So do you know exactly what they've done? How do you know they did not change the friction material, or certain elements of the design? That document doesn't have any engineering data, from what I have seen. Nor do I see any part numbers.

I have a strong suspicion that lack of proper clutching technique led to a number of these events. But nobody EVER admits that they aren't doing it right.

I agree that nearly all of these are user induced however, based on my experience the easy stall low torque dual-mess setup combined with the long mushy break-in period exacerbates clutch abuse. I still firmly standby my theory that the dual-mass makes stalling far more likely and stall avoidance is why people slip it excessively.

I wonder how difficult it would be to weld up the dual mass and test this theory.

 

[jimbom]

... hopped back in my gladiator it felt like my clutch master cylinder had given up the ghost. Took me a good 10-15 seconds pumping it thinking "oh shit how I am i getting home" before i remembered "oh yea, it's just like that".

WTF?, If you had to "pump" your clutch pedal, then your master cylinder HAS given up the ghost.

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