FCA Canada voids transmission warranty for using AMSOIL.

[just_another_guy]

It died after he put fluid in the thing that isn't certified for the transmission. There's a whole lot of unknown here but the things we do know are that they used the wrong fluid and the transmission failed.

The "critical" lab results OP posted are here. 906 ppm iron, 662 ppm copper, and trace amounts of glycol which typically means we measured it but it was insignificant. That's what all this is about and for literal wear metals in every transmission, those numbers are a complete joke.

Here's a ZF 8 speed UOA that I just pulled off the JL Wrangler forum:

112ppm iron and 39ppm copper at 50,000mi on a healthy transmission. Kinda seems like the lab got it right and you are making baseless claims here.

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[WK2JT]

There's only four facts that matter:

1. Your truck is warrantied against failure, not noises or anything else.
2. You elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission
3. The transmission failed after you elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission
4. They voided your warranty because you elected to have non-certified fluid installed in the transmission

Everything else here is completely irrelevant or hearsay and does not provide any evidence that contradicts these facts.

Out of curiosity, could the same be said for an engine failure if you do not use Mopar oil? How does a 3rd party engine oil spec/certification differ from a 3rd party transmission oil spec/certification?

Data point, I used the AMSOIL ATF in my WK2 with the ZF manufactured 8 speed. Nothing scientific here, but it did not cause a failure in my one specific case.

 

[jsalbre]

For this very reason I use no oil but Pennzoil with the MS-6395 certification because if not they may try to void the warranty when it comes to not using recommended engine oil as well when a problem arises.

In the end that's really the important takeaway from all the fluid talk: If the manufacturer says "You have transmission '1234', use fluid marked as certified to spec 'ABCD'", then make sure the fluid you use says certified to spec "ABCD", not just "for use in transmission "1234".

I'm glad they're taking the OP's truck back in and I really hope they find and fix the issue. I personally think it's extremely unlikely that the fluid caused or exacerbated the issue, but it's easy for the dealer and Jeep to use the non-spec meeting fluid as an excuse.

 

[jsalbre]

Out of curiosity, could the same be said for an engine failure if you do not use Mopar oil? How does a 3rd party engine oil spec/certification differ from a 3rd party transmission oil spec/certification?

Data point, I used the AMSOIL ATF in my WK2 with the ZF manufactured 8 speed. Nothing scientific here, but it did not cause a failure in my one specific case.

You don't have to use Mopar oil, but you do need to use oil that meets what the manual says. The manual in the case of oil says

engine oils that are API Certified and meet the requirements of the manufacturer Material Standard MS-6395

and

We recommend you use API Certified SAE 0W-20 Engine Oil, meeting the requirements of the manufacturer Material Standard MS-6395 such as Mopar®, Pennzoil, and Shell Helix. Refer to your engine oil filler cap for correct SAE grade.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Here's a ZF 8 speed UOA that I just pulled off the JL Wrangler forum:

112ppm iron and 39ppm copper at 50,000mi on a healthy transmission. Kinda seems like the lab got it right and you are making baseless claims here.

Those numbers you want to see. That’s now the 3rd other lab report I’ve seen for the ZF transmission. My copper and iron levels prior to doing a flush (yes, this is my mistake I’m fully responsible for) are death numbers…did I mention, prior to the flush.

 

[WK2JT]

You don't have to use Mopar oil, but you do need to use oil that meets what the manual says. The manual in the case of oil says and

And I guess that’s where the ATF differs… is there not a cert process like API for the ATF or there is and AMSOIL isn’t certified?

 

[LostWoods]

Here's a ZF 8 speed UOA that I just pulled off the JL Wrangler forum:

112ppm iron and 39ppm copper at 50,000mi on a healthy transmission. Kinda seems like the lab got it right and you are making baseless claims here.

your anecdotes just don't mean a whole lot.

This you?

 

[LostWoods]

Out of curiosity, could the same be said for an engine failure if you do not use Mopar oil? How does a 3rd party engine oil spec/certification differ from a 3rd party transmission oil spec/certification?

Data point, I used the AMSOIL ATF in my WK2 with the ZF manufactured 8 speed. Nothing scientific here, but it did not cause a failure in my one specific case.

quoted the wrong person...

Oil is waaaay less complicated. If it lubes the engine it works.

Transmission fluid is a hydraulic fluid that must behave consistently to shift properly, a friction modifier to engage the clutch packs, a lubricant for all the metal parts, and a detergent to clean contaminants from the assembly. It's not even apples to oranges it's fruit to a vegetable or a steak even.

And to add, the fluid likely isn't 100% the issue. As I said above, when you have two things marginally in spec at the edge of tolerances, it's possible for those two things to push the assembly tolerances out of spec. It works in your WK2 because your parts are in order but OP very well might have had a very marginal transmission from the get-go and by adding a fluid not designed for it, the transmission was pushed past its limit and did what it did.

The problem is that if the fault is irrelevant when the owner adds a non-certified fluid. If ZF determines what is acceptable and Jeep makes a warranty decision based on that determination, those are the only two you should be listening to if you want to ensure they stand behind their warranty.

 

[jsalbre]

And I guess that’s where the ATF differs… is there not a cert process like API for the ATF or there is and AMSOIL isn’t certified?

What he said

quoted the wrong person...

Oil is waaaay less complicated. If it lubes the engine it works.

Transmission fluid is a hydraulic fluid that must behave consistently to shift properly, a friction modifier to engage the clutch packs, a lubricant for all the metal parts, and a detergent to clean contaminants from the assembly. It's not even apples to oranges it's fruit to a vegetable.

And to add, the fluid likely isn't 100% the issue. As I said above, when you have two things marginally in spec at the edge of tolerances, it's possible for those two things to push the assembly tolerances out of spec. It works in your WK2 because your parts are in order but OP very well might have had a very marginal transmission from the get-go and by adding a fluid not designed for it, the transmission was pushed past its limit and did what it did.

The problem is that if the fault is irrelevant when the owner adds a non-certified fluid. If ZF determines what is acceptable and Jeep makes a warranty decision based on that determination, those are the only two you should be listening to if you want to ensure they stand behind their warranty.

If it doesn't meet the manufactures specific stated certification then it's iffy using it. Stellantis and all ather vehicle OEMs publish their certification requirements and lubricant manufacturers have to pay a licensing and test fee to be certified. Some, like AMSOil, choose not to pay those fees. AMSOil of course costs significantly more than all the certified fluids, so they're really just being greedy and not caring about your warranty.

 

[just_another_guy]

This you?

An anecdote is a story. A very relevant oil analysis that helps prove you wrong isn't an anecdote just because you don't like it.

 

[LostWoods]

An anecdote is a story. A very relevant oil analysis that helps prove you wrong isn't an anecdote just because you don't like it.

Any my 10 years of experience under cars isn't some amusing story either. You present an n=1 case to prove what, exactly?

My point above still stands. OP did this to themself and nobody has shown anything otherwise at this point. They admitted to using non-certified fluid so what else is there to discuss?

 

[just_another_guy]

Any my 10 years of experience under cars isn't some amusing story either. You present an n=1 case to prove what, exactly?

My point above still stands. OP did this to themself and nobody has shown anything otherwise at this point. They admitted to using non-certified fluid so what else is there to discuss?

Saying "I'm experienced" isn't a valid argument. Saying "here's solid evidence that the OP's wear levels were normal before the flush" would have been a valid argument. And nobody is debating that he voided his warranty with the non-oem flush anyway. You seem to have some sort of a grudge against amsoil and all these evil oil labs so I'm going to call it a day here.

 

[Hootbro]

Saying "I'm experienced" isn't a valid argument. Saying "here's solid evidence that the OP's wear levels were normal before the flush" would have been a valid argument. And nobody is debating that he voided his warranty with the non-oem flush anyway. You seem to have some sort of a grudge against amsoil and all these evil oil labs so I'm going to call it a day here.

Yeah, not enough info to call the AMSOIL fluid as the fatal causation when the transmission was already on its way out from the glycol contamination.

 

[Maximus Gladius]

Any my 10 years of experience under cars isn't some amusing story either. You present an n=1 case to prove what, exactly?

My point above still stands. OP did this to themself and nobody has shown anything otherwise at this point. They admitted to using non-certified fluid so what else is there to discuss?

For someone who may not use UOA reports for themselves maybe because it was never a need or ideas were formed early 'they weren't to be trusted',.... trying to explain that extreme levels of metal numbers in a near new transmission, engine, diffs, transfer case, whatever... shows a problem or failure is eminent and not a suggestion, really goes nowhere and the need to try and convince you or other's of like mind, isn't important. The data is factual whether believed or not. There is a point at which reality is what it is and the results in the end is proof of the problem that started much earlier. This transmission wasn't right from the factory.

My main point of changing the oil was to get the glycol out and I did accomplish that and I was not going to pay what the dealership wanted ($3400) to get it out. I may have hoped upgrading to a full synthetic ATF would have made all the difference I needed, but it didn't and neither would putting in the Mopar ATF instead. How good did the factory oil do in the first 24k? The damage came from the factory and once it got out of hand, nothing was going to stop the inevitable. It's days were numbered. I could have ran orange juice in there and it would have failed in the same time period.

But let's not have common sense stop us, let's take a look at what happened when the tech first encountered the oil was red instead of green. Seeing as how we are looking at my reaction as being irrational, count how many times irrational behavior is displayed by Chrysler.

1. Tech discovered the oil was red, everybody reacted irrationally and froze. Blinded by red oil, nothing further took place, and I mean NOTHING further was done. The rational decision to question why so much wear and contamination took place was discarded along with the owner's manual. There was no investigation, just the suggestion to change the fluid, twice @ $3400 before telling Chrysler and waking the dredded and feared District Service Manager. I said no to their most generous offer and told them I wasn't hiding. Wake the beast! But maybe I should have coward and took their offer.
2. Techline wasn't told I had a report showing glycol in the transmission and that I sought out an "equivalent" ATF to flush with. (page 439 and 489 owners manual). That would have been the rational decision.
3. DSM was told of my inserting this mystery "red oil" and without getting up off his chair or picking up the phone to clarify the situation with me or order any sort of service department investigation of the total damage, he took 3.5 seconds, if that, to react irrationally to axe my warranty for using the "wrong oil".
4. The irrational behavior extends to include ANY OTHER COMPONENT using AMSOIL, the Service Manager emails me, and Chrysler is no longer interested to deal with this.
5. I am told it's the "wrong oil" (remember this right here, you'll need to recall this later...) AMSOIL "destroyed transmission, cooler and hoses" I'm told, let them fix it. NO ONE would ever put it in writing, not the dealership, not FCA Customer Care and not the DSM himself. I would only ever get it in that one email from the service manager in #4.
6. Lots of emails, phone calls and two other dealerships step in to offer help in anyway they could and the DSM told them to BACK OFF and leave this alone! He's intimidating and threatening.
7. We jump ahead a few months now to my getting the case opened up for FCA review and investigation. FCA has it for one week and kicks it upstairs for the engineers to look at. One more week goes by and FCA calls to tell me 'the dealership and the DSM say that I did TWO flushes! The first one was the "wrong AMSOIL" then I flushed again to put in the "right AMSOIL". I denied this and said this was a trumped up story to place further blame on me. They lied to FCA and the DSM and dealership conspired together to come up with this bullshit story.

But anyway, there was a right and wrong AMSOIL according to the "trumped up story". So if when the DSM was axing my warranty saying I put in the wrong oil, he was actually looking at the right oil if we take the "two flushes" story.

The service manager at that time said I had put in the "wrong oil" when looking at the specification code on the back of the amsoil bottle so I called my rep and asked if I was given the wrong oil. He confirmed with US AMSOIL that the "wrong oil" was the "right oil" so the statement that I had the wrong oil was wrong and oil was right. The "right" oil now is deemed to be "wrong" when warranty was axed which makes the "first" flush right then was switched out with the "wrong" but was actually right...at the end of the day.

So, their story didn't fly and the engineers then had it for the 3rd week to discuss with ZF 'what the hell'. ZF said no oil is right but the Mopar ATF and that ZF does in fact have other "equivalent" ATF's for this transmission but AMSOIL isn't it.

What a ride....

 

[Mr._Bill]

@LostWoods point is legitimate. The report on the fluid showed that the transmission was in a bad way, but that is specific to one transmission. How it was handled resulted in a situation that we can all learn from. With all the information you have now provided, it is clear that the best advice given was from the first Service Advisor that told you to drive it until it breaks. Changing the fluid only delayed the inevitable, and using a non-Jeep fluid screwed you when seeking warranty coverage.

The main takeaway from your unfortunate experience is to stick with the Factory recommended service guidelines, and use only Factory specified fluids during the warranty period.

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