The 4XE

[aevgladitorrubi]

They all have benefits and a place but they all come at a cost somewhere along the line.

Like the batteries that will be buried in the ground and leak into the water?

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[ShadowsPapa]

700 mile range is not going to happen. Big range matters now because charging takes so long. If you can charge in 10 minutes at a "gas station" just like you can with your current car, then it doesn't really matter if you can go 300 miles or 700 miles.

That's on the way already from what I read ->

https://www.businessinsider.com/ele...le-tesla-supercharger-ford-speed-time-2021-11

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/11/10/ford-and-purdue-charging-station.html

 

[dcmdon]

That's on the way already from what I read ->

https://www.businessinsider.com/ele...le-tesla-supercharger-ford-speed-time-2021-11

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...1/11/10/ford-and-purdue-charging-station.html

If the battery tech arrives, the biggest issue with wide spread high speed charging is the need to build out the electrical
Infrastructure.

People don't realize it but fast charging an electric car involves enormous amounts of electrical energy.

For example. Lets say you have a Tesla model S or X or F150 lightning with the small battery. Each of those has about a 100 kwh battery. That's 100,000 watt hours.

If we figure the average driver wants a charge from 20% to 80%. We're talking about 60,000 watt hours. (As a point of comparison, the average home uses around this much energy in a whole day)

If we want to deliver 60,000 watt hours in 10 minutes, we would need to provide 360,000 watts at the car. Think about that. 360 kw is an enormous amount of power. Again, the average home draws on average 5000 watts of power. So we are talking about a SINGLE car fast charging drawing as much as SEVENTY TWO homes.

The numbers are crazy.

One mitigating factor is that in most places, these chargers will only be needed along highways because even a 200 mile range is more than enough for a day of driving around town. After which you can charge at home.

 

[dcmdon]

Well, I guess I have more faith in American creativity and ingenuity than you. 700 miles is possible...just not in your mind. I will put my faith in others. But, let me give you another brain-teaser; what happens to all the electric/hybrid/EFI vehicles when a natural or man-made EMP occurs? Will we be better off with the 1941 Willy's?

I'm not saying that 700 miles isn't possible. I'm saying its not worth it.

If you can get 300 miles in 5 minutes of charging, there's no point in hauling around $15,000 and 1000 lb of extra battery.

Right now, you can't charge at anywhere near that rate. So my faith in American creativity is that it will find the best solution. Which is fast charging.

A battery that goes 700 miles rather than 300 miles will always cost more than twice as much and will always weigh twice as much. If battery costs get really really low, sure 700 miles makes sense. If a 300 mile battery costs $1000 and weights 300 lbs, sure it makes sense to double it. But its not going to be that cheap for decades. Fast charging will be around within less than one decade.

 

[sharpsicle]

I'm not saying that 700 miles isn't possible. I'm saying its not worth it.

If you can get 300 miles in 5 minutes of charging, there's no point in hauling around $15,000 and 1000 lb of extra battery.

Right now, you can't charge at anywhere near that rate. So my faith in American creativity is that it will find the best solution. Which is fast charging.

A battery that goes 700 miles rather than 300 miles will always cost more than twice as much and will always weigh twice as much. If battery costs get really really low, sure 700 miles makes sense. If a 300 mile battery costs $1000 and weights 300 lbs, sure it makes sense to double it. But its not going to be that cheap for decades. Fast charging will be around within less than one decade.

I would agree with you, but gasoline range has already shown that range does matter regardless of how quick the fill time. People are constantly asking for gasoline vehicles with larger tanks for extended range. The same is going to be true of electric vehicles. Your average person wants to spend less time charging, more time driving. Extended range batteries will be worth it in a very quantifiable way.

As for the "always cost twice as much, always weigh twice as much" statement, that may be true today but it won't be in the future as technology develops further. That type of cost-benefit development is a proven thing in virtually every industry as the technology matures. And it's already happening with EV batteries.

 

[Sazabi19]

Well, I guess I have more faith in American creativity and ingenuity than you. 700 miles is possible...just not in your mind. I will put my faith in others. But, let me give you another brain-teaser; what happens to all the electric/hybrid/EFI vehicles when a natural or man-made EMP occurs? Will we be better off with the 1941 Willy's?

The same thing that will happen to our trucks now or almost anything made since the 70s-80s? Good luck finding all mechanical vehicles that have plenty of spare parts, can be maintained, and you have an unlimited supply of (probably) leaded fuel to use with it.

 

[BAT]

Like the batteries that will be buried in the ground and leak into the water?

Yep they can bury them next to all the wind farm blades which will be around till the planet explodes. At least they can recycle the Solar Panel stuff. I suspect the next thing for the wind farm blades is they might start dumping them offshore

 

[j.o.y.ride]

If the battery tech arrives, the biggest issue with wide spread high speed charging is the need to build out the electrical
Infrastructure.

People don't realize it but fast charging an electric car involves enormous amounts of electrical energy.

For example. Lets say you have a Tesla model S or X or F150 lightning with the small battery. Each of those has about a 100 kwh battery. That's 100,000 watt hours.

If we figure the average driver wants a charge from 20% to 80%. We're talking about 60,000 watt hours. (As a point of comparison, the average home uses around this much energy in a whole day)

If we want to deliver 60,000 watt hours in 10 minutes, we would need to provide 360,000 watts at the car. Think about that. 360 kw is an enormous amount of power. Again, the average home draws on average 5000 watts of power. So we are talking about a SINGLE car fast charging drawing as much as SEVENTY TWO homes.

The numbers are crazy.

One mitigating factor is that in most places, these chargers will only be needed along highways because even a 200 mile range is more than enough for a day of driving around town. After which you can charge at home.

Exactly this.

Delivering the power the last 5 feet of cable is the low hurdle.

Managing the enormous power requirements with sporadic demand is going to be insane.

The usage of these places won't be as big as gas stations because people will fill at home, but when someone does need one it's like suddenly flipping on a city block, at random.

You can't get around this basic core problem of trying to push a butt load of electrons at once.

We won't see true fast charging for decades.

 

[Hootbro]

If the battery tech arrives, the biggest issue with wide spread high speed charging is the need to build out the electrical
Infrastructure.

People don't realize it but fast charging an electric car involves enormous amounts of electrical energy.

For example. Lets say you have a Tesla model S or X or F150 lightning with the small battery. Each of those has about a 100 kwh battery. That's 100,000 watt hours.

If we figure the average driver wants a charge from 20% to 80%. We're talking about 60,000 watt hours. (As a point of comparison, the average home uses around this much energy in a whole day)

If we want to deliver 60,000 watt hours in 10 minutes, we would need to provide 360,000 watts at the car. Think about that. 360 kw is an enormous amount of power. Again, the average home draws on average 5000 watts of power. So we are talking about a SINGLE car fast charging drawing as much as SEVENTY TWO homes.

The numbers are crazy.

One mitigating factor is that in most places, these chargers will only be needed along highways because even a 200 mile range is more than enough for a day of driving around town. After which you can charge at home.

"Engineering Explained" did a pretty good video on what is needed for the power grid to support a predominate EV usage scenario over time. It is not a unrealistic insurmountable problem.

Basically is is doable over time at current and future expected EV adoption growth rates.

 

[WXman]

Electricity here is $0.10/kWh. The 4xe would cost about $0.09 per mile to drive on pure electric power. In most of the country, electricity costs more than it does here where I live, so most folks will spend more per mile to operate it.

An EcoDiesel can operate at $0.12 per mile and doesn't require being plugged up. A Pentastar is similar with its EPA rating and gasoline being less expensive than diesel in most of the country.

So, I don't get it.

And there's no environmental benefit either because manufacturing batteries is the "dirtiest" activity the automotive industry has ever undertaken, and when those battery packs head to the landfills it's even worse.

So, I just don't get it. But to each their own!

Since this thread got resurrected, I should correct this. The 4xe in the JL is a 1 kw per mile vehicle on pure EV mode. That's actually $0.13 per mile on average, depending on your local utility rates.

The JT will see fewer miles of range unless they drastically alter the battery pack. So the cost per mile will be higher on EV mode than it will be on ICE mode.

 

[BAT]

"Engineering Explained" did a pretty good video on what is needed for the power grid to support a predominate EV usage scenario over time. It is not a unrealistic insurmountable problem.

Basically is is doable over time at current and future expected EV adoption growth rates.

Wish I could find it we had a neighbor who lived out here by us and worked for the power company. He did a thing showing if everyone in our neighborhood and just the few surrounding all had electric cars and were trying to charge their cars in the afternoon upon coming home. Pretty much the info spelled out that the system and grid could not handle it and it would take a massive rebuild of the grid to accomplish what was required and that was just for what maybe couple hundred homes. I been trying to get my wife to get a hybrid or something to replace her big Toyota SUV as she is having to go back to the office 5 days a week now. So her options are keep her current gas guzzler, ride the bus which will cost $8-10 a day or sell the Gasser and get a hybrid which will at least allow her to possibly go to work and back on a charge if it gets about 60 miles to a charge. If she went with a Tesla she would not have any problems.

 

[bleda2002]

Since this thread got resurrected, I should correct this. The 4xe in the JL is a 1 kw per mile vehicle on pure EV mode. That's actually $0.13 per mile on average, depending on your local utility rates.

The JT will see fewer miles of range unless they drastically alter the battery pack. So the cost per mile will be higher on EV mode than it will be on ICE mode.

EPA has it at a conservative .68kwh/mile not 1kwh. No one is getting only 15 off the full charge unless they are literally flooring it and in that case you'd be getting under 10mpg similar driving. Euro score has it even more generous with a 33 mile range. Real world range on the 14-15kw it uses is 20-25 in normal city driving.

The gladiator rubicon is rated at 1 mpg less than the wrangler rubicon, so electric wise it shouldnt be a huge difference there either.

 

[dcmdon]

"Engineering Explained" did a pretty good video on what is needed for the power grid to support a predominate EV usage scenario over time. It is not a unrealistic insurmountable problem.

Basically is is doable over time at current and future expected EV adoption growth rates.

I love this Chanel. And I agree with everything he says. Because he is correct.

But he does not address what I was talking about which is ultra fast charging. In my example it was 60 kwh in 10 minutes, or 360,000 watts of power for charging.

His example was "fast charging" at home which is much slower than the example I used. Lets say you allow your EV to draw 60 amps from your home at 240v. That is 14,000 watts.

So we are talking about a level of power that is (14,000/360,000) 3.8% as high as is necessary to charge a 100 kwh battery from 20 to 60% in 10 minutes.

This is important in urban areas because there the majority of buyers don't have access to "in home" charging. They need to go to public chargers and wait while their car charges.

The infrastructure changes necessary to support the huge upgrades (26x the energy per minute of a home charger) will be monumental.

They will happen. Just like he said, these companies want to sell you more power so they will invest in the infrastructure to do that. It will just take time. But back to the original issue. Until EVs can charge in 10 minutes they won't ever replace ICE vehicles. The challenges are 2 fold. 1) battery tech 2) charging infrastructure.

 

[Ericshere03]

Exactly this.

Delivering the power the last 5 feet of cable is the low hurdle.

Managing the enormous power requirements with sporadic demand is going to be insane.

The usage of these places won't be as big as gas stations because people will fill at home, but when someone does need one it's like suddenly flipping on a city block, at random.

You can't get around this basic core problem of trying to push a butt load of electrons at once.

We won't see true fast charging for decades.

This is very close minded... Yes, TONS of power and whats worse is that everyone will be plugging in at 5:30 when we all get home from work ... look at our freeways at 5:30 ... But the home has 2 benefits, space and time. I can see regulation from the utility company to limit a home's current, but that would be OK because we typically charge overnight and potentially have all night to charge. If a customer needs more power they will need a reservoir in which they can tap into for a strong and quick charge, AKA Battery. Batteries can charge 24/4 and offer a "tanks" worth of juice in a relative small area of the home...

like a capacitor in a circuit, the battery will need to be implemented in the home to smooth the sudden energy requirements of fast charging...

Another benefit is that when california's energy grid fails (like it does now), these "power hog" EV owners will have a SUBSTANTIAL home backup. 100KW can power a home for quite a few days ... Shoot we need these cars to have 2 way chargers, a charged car PLUS home battery and you looking at a ton of juice, no solar required, but can help.

 

[Oilburner]

Nobody wants to talk about what electricity will cost after the infrastructure is ‘upgraded’ & you have no options for supply. Enjoy the ICE ‘Good ole days’ while you can.

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