Diesel cooling options and ideas

[jsalbre]

…and as far as I can tell all the manufacturers use the same SAE specifications.
I agree with some of the comments here that imply that the criteria of the test aren’t really that strict or realistic…I mean, who drives on a highway at 45 MPH?

I agree that I definitely don’t want to go 45 MPH up a mountain, which is why when I had a large trailer I bought a large truck with a 400+ HP gas engine and a 6000 rpm redline. It was overkill, but it was happy doing the speed limit up anything I pointed it at.

Look at the other vehicles that are usually pulling near their limits in weight, and have diesels: large RVs and tractor trailers. Those are usually doing 45ish up steep grades. That guy with the 1000 ft-lb of torque in his 3500 diesel pulling a 4 car gooseneck up the mountain is also not making 70mph. Those vehicles may be pulling way more weight than what we’re talking about, but they’re also not using 260hp 3 liter engines.

Heat may be one of the most obvious indicators, but power is one of the biggest actual problems.

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[Overland-2021]

Wrong..

Elevation does absolutely matter. See this video for an explanation…

Great video!
Altitude and temperature are important - especially the higher you go.

By this thread it looks like changing the air flow to the engine has little beneficial effect. I wonder if all those scoops and holes are somehow defeating some of the cooling in the original design. Leads me to believe the engineers did the best they could given the design constraints.
Be nice to heard from an FCA engineer on this.

IMO the only real option to consider if overheating becomes an issue is additional transmission/engine coolers.

I am intrigued by the VW water misting system though...

 

[A 2]

Was thinking about how the ac compressor could help in cooling so I googled it and found this:

@ShadowsPapa , did you help write this?

Charge Air Subcooling in a Diesel Engine via Refrigeration Unit – Effects on the Turbocharger Equilibrium

Abstract
The stringent regulations on fuel saving and emissions reduction in the transportation sector have become game-raisers in the development of present internal combustion engines for road applications, even if under-the-hood space constraints, downsizing and down-weighting prevent from adopting radical changes in the engine layout. Charge air cooling is the standard in present turbocharged diesel engines, to the point that a dedicated heat exchanger, fed by environmental air, is located downstream the compressor. The paper proves the option of an additional cooling through the cabin-heating unit - usually over-sized with respect to normal operation - very effective to increase charge air density and improve cylinder filling. The intercooler downstream the compressor would be provided with a lower thermal load, hence calling for smaller heat exchange surfaces, leading to reduced weight, space saving and no increased layout complexity. By pushing this idea forward, a properly sized cabin-heating unit could even supply enough air cooling to replace the intercooler instead of just assisting it, further raising the weight/space/layout advantages. In presence of an additional heat exchanger, the cooling efficiency would be no longer related to the vehicle speed and the benefit in terms of cylinder filling could be kept to the desired value on a wider operating range for the engine. Plus, the lower combustion temperatures associated with both a colder air and a more diluted charge approaching the chamber would also result in a more regular combustion process, in spite of a moderate penalty on the thermodynamic efficiency. The additional fuel consumption to compress the cooling fluid is always offset by the fuel saving with respect to normal operation and a beneficial effect is appreciated on emissions. Nonetheless, major variables to account for when evaluating the feasibility of such a layout are (i) the impact it has on the equilibrium of the turbocharger, i.e. on the efficiency at each operating point, (ii) to what extent the presence of a colder air affects the turbine/compressor matching and (iii) the rack position the ECU fixes at the VGT, to face both pressure losses at the additional evaporator and the different enthalpy content for both the air at the compressor outlet and the exhaust gases at the turbine inlet. A comprehensive experimental activity supported by a detailed 1D model of the engine unit, aimed at assessing the benefits of the air under-cooling, allowed to select the most appropriate cooling layout and, once validated based on the experimental evidence, to investigate the equilibrium at the turbocharger.

 

[jsalbre]

I am intrigued by the VW water misting system though...

There are a number of DIY instructions out there, and even a handful of commercial systems. I believe some older Subaru STis even came with an intercooler sprayer from the factory in certain markets.

 

[Chance575]

I come from the world of high hp cars.

see interchiller for more info on using a/c compressor to cool a Intercooler. It been used for years but it doesn’t last long for extended use

also you could get a methanol injection system, used one on turbo gto and it work great, they all sell systems to spray Intercooler

 

[Hondo1]

Going in for gears this Monday, I’m on 37’s and going with 4:56’s. Hopefully this will take some load off of the engine while towing, I live in Colorado and have been having derate issues since June while pulling my camper over mountain passes.
I have been thinking about seeing if Tazer will give me their beta program that will run the fan full time on command. If this doesn’t work I will look further into oil cooler options. Im thinking something along the lines of a Derale remote mounted cooler with its own fan set up on a thermostat.

 

[yolo]

Going in for gears this Monday, I’m on 37’s and going with 4:56’s. Hopefully this will take some load off of the engine while towing, I live in Colorado and have been having derate issues since June while pulling my camper over mountain passes.
I have been thinking about seeing if Tazer will give me their beta program that will run the fan full time on command. If this doesn’t work I will look further into oil cooler options. Im thinking something along the lines of a Derale remote mounted cooler with its own fan set up on a thermostat.

Loved to hear your experience with this. Please keep us updated!

 

[CerOf]

The side vents are apparently functional.

throwing this up here for y’all with more creativity than I.

https://www.jeepgladiatorforum.com/forum/threads/fender-vent-delete.46863/

 

[jeepin48]

Going in for gears this Monday, I’m on 37’s and going with 4:56’s. Hopefully this will take some load off of the engine while towing, I live in Colorado and have been having derate issues since June while pulling my camper over mountain passes.
I have been thinking about seeing if Tazer will give me their beta program that will run the fan full time on command. If this doesn’t work I will look further into oil cooler options. Im thinking something along the lines of a Derale remote mounted cooler with its own fan set up on a thermostat.

IMO the gears are going to help make it more driveable for sure but the heat will probably still be there. The heat comes from power used and your power used will still be there based heavily on aerodynamics, speed, and weight. If you go the same speed just with different engine RPM it will be pretty similar heat / power required. Not too much different (but different for sure) than downshifting.

I thought the cooling fan would kick on high if the coolant temp got high enough but I can not confirm it does while driving down the road (too loud). That would be a great if it did.

Oil cooler would be great. Tapping into they system will be a problem and right now I have no clue where the best location and what the minimum flow requirement would be. The last thing I would want to do is starve or over pressure something.

 

[Sting-Gray Neutral Pres.]

So what's up with the air intake? I don't even understand how the intake actually gets air when it is a rubber gasket that more or less appears to seal to a blank metal area of the hood.
Despite me scratching my head on how air enters the intake in this location, if it's doing it from the top of the engine bay that is a very warm location that will just get hotter on a hot day when the engine is working hard. Cooling air as much as possible at the original source is the simplest fix here. Either reroute intake air to the lower wheel well/front fender, induct it through the hood, or add a snorkel.

 

[jeepin48]

So what's up with the air intake? I don't even understand how the intake actually gets air when it is a rubber gasket that more or less appears to seal to a blank metal area of the hood.
Despite me scratching my head on how air enters the intake in this location, if it's doing it from the top of the engine bay that is a very warm location that will just get hotter on a hot day when the engine is working hard. Cooling air as much as possible at the original source is the simplest fix here. Either reroute intake air to the lower wheel well/front fender, induct it through the hood, or add a snorkel.

There is a small hole behind the front grill that passes to the air box. Look at my photos on page 1.

 

[jeepin48]

This is what the oil filter housing looks like (might be a gen 2 eco diesel but still very similar). It has an oil to coolant plate exchanger attached making a standard "add on" oil cooler impossible.

 

[houseofdiesel]

Thermostat! I'm not reading through 12 pages. Current EPA regs are forcing the engineers to run the vehicles hotter to achieve the lowest NOx levels. With any vehicle that tows this is counter productive to engine components. Especially due to once you add load the cooling system is already at it's threshold and all of the components have to work overtime. There are 3 major factors that lead to overheating. First is the thermostat. With the HD trucks we have different rated thermostats for different climates. I personally am always working my vehicles to the limits with towing and my driving habits to I run the lowest possible thermostats in my rigs. This has for the most part solved my getting hotter than I like issues when towing or heavy acceleration with headwinds or on grades.

Next is oil temps. With the 6.0 Powerstroke and other diesels the oil cooling systems are inefficient. The oil cooling system can not keep up with the duty of cooling the oil once the engine is put under load. Solution is increasing oil cooling cause it causes a situation where the water cooling is trying to cool both. To know 100% if the Eco-diesel needs more water or oil cooling both should be examined before throwing money at a radiator. Newer HD trucks are running dual radiators for their cooling to try and keep combustion temps around 210. The new LM2 3.0L Duramax has an additional cooling system for the intake on top of the intercooler.

If you live in a warm climate that never sees sub zero temps try running a lower thermostat before anything else.

If it's oil temps driving up the engine temps I'd enlist and look to BulletProof Diesel or Mishimoto to engineer a solution. Though there solutions go through EPA testing and approval. The original BulletProof external oil cooling systems for example kept oil temps below 180*. The EPA didn't like that so in order to gain EPA approval for their products they had to make their external cooling systems less efficient. I bought their kit for a new truck and had Brice Thomas Radiator make me a custom oil cooler with 3x the volume of BulletProof's and never saw oil temps above 180* under WOT fully loaded in 100* weather. That solved all my problems cause the water/engine cooling system was free to do it's job. If oil temps are driving up cooling temps on the EcoDiesel a larger radiator will not help.

A lot to unpack but if anyone with a scan tool or Banks Iq could post temps under load it would help know 100% where to start.

 

[houseofdiesel]

This is what the oil filter housing looks like (might be a gen 2 eco diesel but still very similar). It has an oil to coolant plate exchanger attached making a standard "add on" oil cooler impossible.

Yep that would be up BulletProof or Mishimoto's ally. I have a guy here in the Bay Area that has the ability to scan housing parts like this and add ports where needed but not the time to tackle the job. Used them to make a custom cold side neck for a Miata motor that I was running a remote radiator on and using a -20 or -24 An fitting. A friend of mine with a machine shop cut me two housings. Those are the two things it would take to make it happen on the personal side along with finding a place to mount a cooler, having someone like Brice Thomas make a custom cooler, and then sourcing custom hoses.

Judging by this recent post in the other thread 260* is absolutely absurd.

 

[jeepin48]

Thermostat! I'm not reading through 12 pages. Current EPA regs are forcing the engineers to run the vehicles hotter to achieve the lowest NOx levels. With any vehicle that tows this is counter productive to engine components. Especially due to once you add load the cooling system is already at it's threshold and all of the components have to work overtime. There are 3 major factors that lead to overheating. First is the thermostat. With the HD trucks we have different rated thermostats for different climates. I personally am always working my vehicles to the limits with towing and my driving habits to I run the lowest possible thermostats in my rigs. This has for the most part solved my getting hotter than I like issues when towing or heavy acceleration with headwinds or on grades.

Next is oil temps. With the 6.0 Powerstroke and other diesels the oil cooling systems are inefficient. The oil cooling system can not keep up with the duty of cooling the oil once the engine is put under load. Solution is increasing oil cooling cause it causes a situation where the water cooling is trying to cool both. To know 100% if the Eco-diesel needs more water or oil cooling both should be examined before throwing money at a radiator. Newer HD trucks are running dual radiators for their cooling to try and keep combustion temps around 210. The new LM2 3.0L Duramax has an additional cooling system for the intake on top of the intercooler.

If you live in a warm climate that never sees sub zero temps try running a lower thermostat before anything else.

If it's oil temps driving up the engine temps I'd enlist and look to BulletProof Diesel or Mishimoto to engineer a solution. Though there solutions go through EPA testing and approval. The original BulletProof external oil cooling systems for example kept oil temps below 180*. The EPA didn't like that so in order to gain EPA approval for their products they had to make their external cooling systems less efficient. I bought their kit for a new truck and had Brice Thomas Radiator make me a custom oil cooler with 3x the volume of BulletProof's and never saw oil temps above 180* under WOT fully loaded in 100* weather. That solved all my problems cause the water/engine cooling system was free to do it's job. If oil temps are driving up cooling temps on the EcoDiesel a larger radiator will not help.

A lot to unpack but if anyone with a scan tool or Banks Iq could post temps under load it would help know 100% where to start.

To summarize the last 12 pages : ).. It does not sound like a thermostat is going to fix this issue. 260+ oil temps and 245+ coolant temps is beyond where a thermostat would be fully open. Under low load the thermostat would lower the temps but while towing these engines are WAY past that at are 20-40 above fully open.

I agree an oil pump inline oil cooler would be great. Have someone cut a 1" block with all the o-ring groves to mate between the engine block and the factory housing. I attached a picture and you can see it would need some bypass ports. nothing too fancy. A few lines that come out to its own radiator and it would probably lower the coolant temps also. I have CAD and machine shop sources to do it but it would take more time than I can put into it. I'm not even sure if you spaces it off 1" there would be room.

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